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 Post subject: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
Who-knows-what about the Citroen DS?
I find myself developing an interest in those highly unusual cars. They had some exceptionally bizarre mechanical abilities which I've never seen on any other vehicle.

Anyone ever own one, know of one for sale, or have any experience with them?


Frank T

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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:27 am 
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Never even heard of one. :thumbs_down:

...until today!


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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
It was very weird, indeed, and I don't know if I even know enough about its many (many) features to do it justice in a short statement.

It was designed around the then-revolutionary radial tire. It was called an executive car, weighed two ton and it became the personal vehicle for many Heads of State, due to its reliability and extreme comfort. A WWII aircraft designer made the car the most-aerodynamically slippery car in the world when it was released in 1955. It resembled a catfish if you squinted hard.

The 2.0L engine was in the front, adding traction to the front driving wheels. In case of a head-on collision, the engine was designed to slip UNDER the car rather than intrude into the passenger cabin. It was the first car in the world to employ 4-wheel disc brakes and radial tires as standard equipment, and the brakes were inboard rather than out at the wheels. The "grille" was actually a vent under the front bumper which lifted air from the high-pressure area under the car, thru the radiator to cool the engine. Btwn the front bumper and the radiator sat the spare wheel and tools for tire changes, altho they were not needed for a flat. The entire (tiny) engine and integral gearbox sat far enough behind the front axle to justify the title of the world's first mid-engine passenger car. The high beam headlamps followed the front wheels, turning 80* in either direction as the driver turned the wheel. The pneumatic suspension system also somehow kept the high beam headlamps LEVEL with the road, regardless how bumpy the road might be, or how high or low the body pitched or rolled. Like the cannon muzzle on today's US Abrams main battle tank, the headlamps remained locked-on-target in spite of what the rest of the car was doing.

The roof was fiberglass to reduce weight and keep the center of gravity low. The front wheel track was noticeably wider than the rear wheel track, which gave the car great stability, handling ease and steering accuracy. The steering wheel had but a single spoke which pointed down when steering dead-ahead; that allowed perfect view of all the gauges at all times. The cars had no brake pedals; you stepped gently on a 'rubber mushroom' and the car stopped itself under perfect control from any speed.

Available transmissions included standard 4-or-5 speeds, or a weird "CitroMatic" pre-selector semi-automatic which shifted gears without a clutch (similar to the fluid clutch Chryslers of the 1950s) or a fully automatic 3-spd. There were various steps to start the car, which involved a key (of course), but then required to you lift the shift lever or depress part of a dash panel to engage the starter. Perfect anti-theft device; hide the starter mechanism in plain sight and disguise it as something else, and those combinations changed from year to year so people didn't always know what would start this year's model unless they had the owners' manual.

But the suspension was the prize (and the SURprise). Citroen invented a "hydropneumatic" (technically an "OilioPneumatic") suspension system which combined oil fluid (which cannot be compressed) and gas (which is compressible) to replace both springs and shocks at each wheel. Along with the inboard brakes, the result was nearly ZERO unsprung weight and perfect independent suspension of each wheel at all times. I'm no expert on that system but under the hood can be found several green spheres which contain the magic gas/oil combinations. The system automatically levels the car under all conditions, without any input from the driver. Thus, you can have the back seat full of weightlifters, the trunk full of dead bodies and bricks and the front seat full of skinny minnies and the car will level itself automatically. Body roll around turns is automatically corrected, as well. Those same spheres provide the pressurized fluid to operate the power brakes and power steering, too.

A lever inside the cockpit allows the driver to adjust the ride height of the whole car. He can lift the car body well up above the wheels like a Monster Truck (for deep snow, water or mud or driving across cow pastures) or lower it full-down for minimum wind resistance on the highway, or any point in-btwn. Today's "kneeling" buses use that exact system to make it easier for passengers to enter/exit them. Citroen introduced that in 1955.

[When I was a teenager my buddy and I drove downtown in my 1956 Austin Healey. It was very low-slung, with less than 4" of ground clearance btwn the car and the road. A Citroen DS pulled alongside us at a stoplight. Dignified dad and mom in the front were dressed to the hilt. Their two lovely teenaged daughters sat in the rear seat and began flirting with us thru their closed window. Dad studied the situation only a moment, reached down and worked the lever by his knee; the whole DS rose beside us like an elevator until the girls were "safely" out of our view]. :lol:

Each fender or door can be removed from the car by the owner at any time, for any reason, and the car can be driven without them. A crumpled fender can be replaced by a new fender in your own driveway. The rear fenders completely cover the wheels for aerodynamic purposes. Like fender skirts of the 1950s/60s, that makes it hard to access a wheel to change a flat. A special wrench allows a single turn on one bolt, which allows the entire lightweight fender to be removed. That gives complete access to the wheel, brake and all suspension connections for that wheel. The 'wrench' then becomes the "jack" (altho not the form we are familiar with). Raising the car on its suspension completely, allows the wrench/jack to be inserted into a central hole at the balance point under the doors (like a single-point racing car being jacked up). Lowering the suspension again, the jack acts as a support point for the whole side of the car, except that the flat tire never lowers. It hangs in the air and you can remove the flat tire. If you replace the flat with the spare, the whole car sits back down on all 4 wheels. If your spare is flat or you don't have one, or if you just want to freak out all the rest of the traffic, you can lower the car back down onto 3 wheels and drive it safely to wherever you're going :lol The loss of one wheel has no effect on handling or suspension.

French president Charles DeGaulle credited the DS with saving his life. Like so many other presidents, DeGaulle chose the DS as his official car due to its incredible deep comfort and reliability. One day motorcycle assassins ambushed his car with submachine guns, riddling the DS with more than 100 rounds and flattening all 4 tires. His driver was able to out-run the motorcycle hit men at high speed on 4 flats due to the DS' incredible suspension, which didn't seem to care whether he had tires or not. DeGaulle promptly named the Citroen DS "the national car of France", which led to the presidents of even more countries adopting it as their official Head of State transport. The presidents of most African states used DSes to commute in perfect, level, hi-speed comfort long distances across the primative dirt backroads which connected their countries.

In French, the word "Deesse" (sp?) means Goddess, and the DS is called that, world-wide. Each interior seat is built like a lounge chair; you don't sit on it, you sit IN it. Thick underfoot carpets and deep, thick soft leather interiors are available in the Pallas trim which enhance the luxury experience, and the Citroen DS has many times been voted "the most-comfortable car in the world", beating Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Mercedes Benz limos, Aston Martin and Cadillac each year. It was voted the "the most beautiful car of the century" for all of the 1900s and came in 3rd as the "Car of the 20th Century".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroen_DS

And now you know what I know.

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Last edited by Frank T on Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:01 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:21 am
Posts: 973
Location: Somers CT
This one would go well with your z and it looks cool chopped ! ! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Image

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W.Karl Walton
Somers CT



75' - 280Z - HLS30203249 - #304 Gold Metallic (stockish)
96' - 300zx TT - JN1CZ24d3TX960293 - Black on Black (enhanced)


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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
That might be a famous hi-speed twin-turbo land speed record race car. They can't find any glass to fill the windows; the whole car is open and can hit 202mph, if that's the same car.

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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:01 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 290
Location: Bethel, CT
Frank,
Maybe if you had the DS convertible you might have impressed the father of the two babes and had a chance, at least been on the same level instead of in that low rider ratty Healey! At least you could fix the Healey on the side of the road, not so much the DS.
I always liked the SM, Maserati-all aluminum V6, 170hp. Attached from Quentin Willson's Great Cars book.
Colin
the older on


Attachments:
CITROEN DS P1.jpg
CITROEN DS P1.jpg [ 965.21 KiB | Viewed 10968 times ]
CITROEN D2 P2.jpg
CITROEN D2 P2.jpg [ 958.67 KiB | Viewed 10968 times ]
CITROEN SM.jpg
CITROEN SM.jpg [ 867.33 KiB | Viewed 10968 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
Colin the Elder:

I have actually seen an SM up close and under hood. I found it striking that all the French stuff was painted green and isolated from all the Italian stuff, which was painted red. It was as if the French engineers were unwilling to allow mechanics from the two countries to work together. The engine bay literally had two separate sections, one for either mechanic, and the worker on one system need not involve himself with the systems of the other country. It appeared to have been a reluctant joint effort.

Because the Cits are front-wheel-drive (TractionAvant), the gearbox is ahead of the engine and behind the front axle. Some engines are mounted backwards to achieve this, others simply drive out of the front pulley.

I could have cared less about impressing that University-Dean daddy; we already had the attention of his daughters and the more he might have learned about John and I, the more-distant our chances would have been with his girls. I have a picture of my ratty AH-100 but can't get it to post here (my picture-posting privileges seem to have been revoked since the new Website format became effective). :?

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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 290
Location: Bethel, CT
Yea!!! We have a photo of a young handsome Frank Thomas in his Healey...
"My first AH-100 (taken cir 1965), add to our discussion about the DS Citroen. This was the first of several Healey 100s I owned, and this was the first hour I owned it. It has not even had it's first bath yet."
Second photo, me in my TR3A cir 1968.
Oh what fun days!

Colin
the older


Attachments:
FRANK THOMAS AH .jpg
FRANK THOMAS AH .jpg [ 381.73 KiB | Viewed 10955 times ]
Colin's-TR-3-01# copy.jpg
Colin's-TR-3-01# copy.jpg [ 234.55 KiB | Viewed 10955 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
They were indeed magic years, fondly remembered.
Thanks, Colin. :thumbs_up:

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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:09 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Chicago
The Citroen DS was engineered with Center Point Steering Geometry that eliminates bump steer completely, no matter how catastrophic the input. It was that, even more than the pneumatic suspension, that allowed de Gaulle's driver to control his car at high speed with blown out tires.

See at the 30 second mark in this vintage video showing a driver with his hands completely off the steering wheel never has to do a thing to keep the car going straight and true during an induced massive blow out. Pretty amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pejl255S1w

In that same vein is the unique power steering. There is no direct mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the rack & pinion. It was Fly-By-Wire for the tiem. The steering provided no jerking to the drivers hands from road irregularities like potholes and other obstacles.

Oh, and those in-board front disc brakes were big over-sized units providing huge braking power.

The lightweight fiberglass roof was mentioned, to reduce weight and lower the CG, but along those same lines, the hood and trunk were aluminum, for the same reasons, and that at the time the hood was the largest single aluminum pressing in the world.

The engines, though lacking horsepower, were dependable, bulletproof affairs that would just run and run and run.

Aerodynamics! The shape and clean surfaces of the car have been mentioned, but NOT the underside of the car, which was very nearly enclosed!

Image

The A-pillars were intentionally kept very slim, and were coupled with a curved windshield, with no distortion, for big, panoramic views.

And speaking of views, the trunk lid design has long hinges of which meant that when it was raised, the driver still had a full unobstructed view to the rear. You can see here how it completely follows the shape of the rear windscreen.

Image

Even through the end of the 20 year production run (1955 - 1975) the DS retained the ability to be hand crank started. The access alignment hole is concealed behind the front licence plate.

And I left the best for last. Unless I missed it, no one mentioned the roofline high-visibility rear indicator lights in their silver "coronets."

Image

From 1956-1958 on cars with dark roofs those fixtures were longer, more extravagant affairs, with the wonderfully evocative name, "Trompettes de Jéricho"!

All in all, the DS is as innovative mechanically as it is distinctive looking. No other car like it then, or since.

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
Thnx for the info, Tengu. Very good to hear from you again, way out there in Chicago land.

The video was great (it showed the tire change routine I tried to describe, and the 3-wheel cruising), but i couldn't get any of your pictures to show up.

The DS is, without a doubt, the most-unique car I've ever experienced.

Didn't you once say you had one as a family car, growing up?

FrankT

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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:09 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Chicago
Sorry to hear, Frank, that the photos didn't show up on your device. I'm seeing them fine on mine. Perhaps they're too big, and your device settings won't show them.

Or, to put it another way. Dunno.

Growing up we had a big Mercedes 300D, just like this one.

Image

And my Uncle drove a Volvo P1800.

But unfortunately, no. We didn't own a DS. I saw them plenty, while abroad. And later on, there was a garage a few miles from me that specialized in them and had a lot filled with at least a dozen of them at any time, all always unlocked, so that I could sit in them, and open the hood and trunk, and poke about. I never ever saw anyone working there. And one day, the whole affair just up and left. Gone. Never seen anything like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Citroen DS?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:08 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
Here's an interesting primer from Hemmings. One picture demonstrates the ease with which you could disassemble your car in the driveway, replacing each panel with a different paint scheme if you wished. Removal of the doors and fenders had no effect on driving the car.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2013 ... itroen-ds/

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