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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:27 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Hebron, CT
May be a dumb question, but I need a little direction and was hoping the more experienced Z owners could chime in here.

I have a L24 series motor that I (over 20 years ago) disassembled with the idea of building an IT race engine. Had all parts machined, bought new parts, etc. Now I have come to the fact that completing the car will not happen, so I'm selling everything.

Question #1 - when selling engine parts, are there assemblies that are best to sell together? For example, can I sell just the bare block or should I include **** when selling the block? Cylinder head - should I make sure to include the cam towers, or sell the towers with the reground cam separately? Some of this may be obvious to you, but to me I have no clue.

Question #2 - how can you tell if you have a Series 1 car? I have a 1970 240 with VIN #4057. Has the horizontial vents and vertical defrost wires in the rear hatch.

Thank you!

-Robert


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12676
Location: CT
There's no such thing as a dumb question on this website, only shared information. We all started out knowing nothing about these cars and built our 'library' slowly. PleaZe feel free to ask anything, because each of us learns from every discussion we have.

PleaZe allow me to answer your most-important question first ~ YES! You do have a Series-1 240Z :D (Sincere congratulations!)

Your sister car (HLS30-04056) was built in May70, and so was yours. How do I know that? Because the owner of #4056 registered his Z with (our member) Carl Beck's Internet Z Car Club ( http://www.zhome.com/ ) and all that info is listed on the registry. Your important car, however, is NOT registered yet and it is our (my) intent to hound you until it is :lol:
Carl has spent many years compiling this list, so he can account for as many old Series-1 and -2 cars as possible. There weren't very many Series-1 cars made to begin with (about 10,000) and most of them died over the past 44 years, so we think there are fewer than 2,000 left. There were more than 35,000 1971 cars made, so there are far more of them than there are 1970 models. But even the 1971 cars still qualify as being 'rare'.

Your May70 car will be visually distinguishable in several quick ways (if it's stock):
1. There will be 240Z "wings" attached to either rear pillar, which are replaced on the Series 2 cars by a circular ventilation hole;
2. There will be two horiZontal vent grilles on the rear hatch below the window glass;
3. The defroster wires in the rear hatch will run vertically rather than horiZontally;
4. The steering wheel spokes will be solid, with indentations instead of square holes punched thru them.
5. The 1970 & 71 dashboard, transmission tunnel and interior are very nearly identical (seats reclined at the end of the Series-1/beginning of the Series-2 cars);
6. Your tools and jack should hide under flimsy plastic hoods behind the seats;
7. Your car should weigh only about 2355 lbs.

PleaZe register your #4057 with Carl Beck's Internet Z Car Club?

Frank T


Attachments:
File comment: 1970 240Z jack and tools hid behind the seats under flimsy plastic hoods
1970 240z 026.jpg
1970 240z 026.jpg [ 485.67 KiB | Viewed 1269 times ]
File comment: Only Series-1 cars had the rear hatch vents (Oct69-Feb71).
'70 rear hatch vent.jpg
'70 rear hatch vent.jpg [ 25.97 KiB | Viewed 1272 times ]
File comment: Only Series-1 cars had the 240 "wings" on the rear pillars behind the driver's head
240Z wings.jpg
240Z wings.jpg [ 16.34 KiB | Viewed 1272 times ]
File comment: Series-1 wheels were solid spokes with indentations. Series-2 had holes punched thru
Series-1 wheel.jpg
Series-1 wheel.jpg [ 23.18 KiB | Viewed 1272 times ]
File comment: Series-1 and some very early Series-2 cars had vertical defroster wires in the rear hatch
Vertical defroster wires.jpg
Vertical defroster wires.jpg [ 81.29 KiB | Viewed 1272 times ]

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1970 240Z


Last edited by Frank T on Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
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Location: CT
In answer to your other question, I would never 'part out' an engine, especially if I had installed any kind of upgrades to it.

Main bearing caps are line-bored and should stay with the block they belong to. Cam towers can be swapped with a lot of measuring but it's far more gooder to leave the whole engine together and sell it as a unit.

If you have the original E-31 high compression head, those are highly sought after because of the higher (9:1) compression, so that would sell well independently if you wanted to. Many guys are now buying later heads with the larger valves and machining them down to high compression, but the process costs well over $1000 so the E-31 remains desirable.

What to ask for a rebuilt L24 with an E-31 head? I paid $500 extra for a spare rebuilt L28 when I bought my 240Z back (long story). If performance is what the new buyer is after, he might do well to buy a 260 or 280 engine and beef that up. But if the new buyer is a stickler for the ALL-IMPORTANT ORIGINALITY, your numbers-matching original L24 is irreplaceable and should stay with the car.

You didn't mention if you're selling the car or not? If so, the engine and EVERY spare part should be offered as a whole. There are few enough of these early cars left, to make them very desirable for restoration. When doing that the engine block number listed on the Data Plate (passenger side front shock tower area) is of prime importance to a potential buyer.


Attachments:
File comment: Both car VIN and original engine block number are listed on the under hood Data Plate
240z data plate.jpg
240z data plate.jpg [ 179.16 KiB | Viewed 1260 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:19 pm
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Frank T wrote:
PleaZe feel free to ask anything, because each of us learns from every discussion we have.


You mean how I just learned a boatload here?? :D

Good Knowledge, Frank


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:17 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
The first "Series" of Regular Production, Datsun 240Z's, started production in Oct. 1969 with VIN HLS30 00013. "Regular Production" means cars produced in compliance with all existing regulations - which could be sold to the public. The Series I Datsun 240Z continued in production into Feb. 1971. The last Series I VIN reported is HLS30 20438.

The Series II Datsun 240Z's started production in Feb. 1971 with VIN HLS30 21000 and continued into Sept. 1971. The highest VIN reported so for - for a Series II Datsun 240Z is 43049.

According to Nissan the Series III Datsun 240Z's started production in Sept. of 1971 with VIN HLS30 46000. These were all sold as 1972 Model Year 240Z's. However, due to the fact that the Series II were phased out, while at the same time the Series III cars were starting production - several cars with VIN's between 43000 and 46000 were actually produced in the Series III configurations. 43496 for example was indeed a full Series III Datsun 240Z. {with the new dash, center console, Type B transmission etc}. It was sold/titled as a 1972 Model Year Z. {so it seems nothing is absolute aks black/white}.

There is a lot of confusion introduced however when we are using only "Model Year" to describe a Datsun 240 for the 1970 or 1971 Model Years. The reason is that the Series I Datsun 240Z's were sold and titled by the Dealers as both 1970 and/or 1971 Model Year vehicles {although they are the same Series I units if their VIN's are below 21000}. All Series II units were sold and titled as 1971 Datsun 240Z's however. This Model Year confusion - is the reason we use "Series" to describe the car more accurately related to how it was configured, what features it contained and how many were produced.

If we are talking strictly about how the car was sold/titled i.e. the "Model Year" - the highest VIN verified sold as a 1970 Model Year 240Z is HLS30 11730 with a Date of Manufacture of 10/70. Most Series I units arriving at the Dealerships in Sept. 1970 or later - were sold/titled as 1971 Model Year 240Z's, even though they are quite different than the Series II units sold as 1971 Model Year 240Z's.

So there were aprox. 20438 - 13 = 20,425 Series I Datsun 240Z's produced.
There were 46000 - 21000 = 25,000 Series II Datsun 240Z's produced {using Nissan's figures}.

By the time the Series III aka 1972 Model Year 240Z's started production - Nissan Shatia had greatly modernized and expanded its production facilities {due to the huge demand from the US}. So we see the 1972 Model Year 240Z's starting production with HLS30 46000 and ending at 100262 {highest reported so far}. So 54,262 1972 Model Year units produced. Nissan Shatia doubled their production capability in an attempt to keep up with the demand in the US. Nissan Motors was also adding Car Carrying Ships to its fleet.

The 1973 Model Year 240Z's had to meet far stricter Emissions Standards and Nissan started their VIN's at HLS30 120000. The highest VIN reported so far is HLS30 172767. So aprox. 52767 units produced for the 1973 Model Year as well.


If you still have the whole car - I would think that any future buyer would want the original engine with the car. If for some reason the car could not be saved/restored/refreshed - - then there really isn't much demand for L24's at this point. As Frank mentioned complete E31 heads usually find a buyer. Likewise the Valve covers with "2400cc OHC" will sell for $250.00 now. Good used fenders, doors and hoods are also in demand, good used bumpers, tail lights etc can all usually find a buyer. Complete in take systems with the original SU's usually sell pretty quickly. So if the car can't be saved - in that case the most money could be regained by parting everything out.

Good luck,
Carl


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:27 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Hebron, CT
Frank & Carl, thank you so much for the history and your insight. Clearly I had no idea what I had/have when I bought these cars. Back in 1988, I bought a '71 240Z with 140K on the odometer with the vision of turning it into an SCCA IT racer. The man I bought it from, in his late forties, told me stories about how he used to work at Bob Sharp. Along with the car I bought from him, he had a stock 240Z with the orig. black magnesium minilites he kept under wraps in his garage. After towing my Z car home, I began disassembling the car to prep the engine and chassis for the racing glory that lay ahead. During the teardown process, I uncovered heavy rust in the front frame rails right at the sway mounting points and radius rod location. Still in college (no money) crying in my beer (with what little money I had left) and no friends who had welding/fabrication skills, I abandoned the chassis in my yard and began to look for another roller. Looking back on this now, this is/was a Series 1 car (#19851). A year later I purchased a former "race" roller for $400, but after looking beyond the shiny stainless brake lines, the decomposing padding on the roll bar and what was left of the homemade cooling ducts, this car had far more rust than my first. The car is now in pieces around my Dad's yard; he went crazy with the sawzall. Which now brings us to my third Z car, a 1970 240Z (#4057). Bought this car in 1998, ten years after I started this crazy dream, in hopes of finally completing this racer. I bought it from a kid who was using the car to commute to and from college. The car has just developed a bad rod bearing knock; however, the body was in good shape and all the mechanicals worked from being driven daily. Unfortunately, the car had a small moonroof installed ?! (is that SCCA legal?). I figured I would just swap motors from the first car and off we'd go to the races. Clearly I wasn't thinking straight at the time as my WIFE was right next to me when I bought this car....pregnant with my first child. Fifteen years later...the car sits in the exact same spot as when I brought it home.

Thank you for the trip down memory lane. Based on your insight and advice, I know now that I will be selling the #4057 as a complete car (never got around to messing that one up), and will part out the disassembled engine from my first car as that chassis is missing the front clip (Dad with the sawzall again). Many spares too....cause you know you can't go racing without spares.

If only I knew then, what I know now.......


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12676
Location: CT
Feel free to advertiZe it here first, if you wish. You could offer the whole bunch as a package deal ~ complete car with spare partz car.

We all have Z dreams. Putting them to work is the hard part. Seeing others do it keeps our hopes alive.

Today we have a few companies who sell frame rails to repair rusted Zs. They are very popular and beefy enough to handle V8s. Those didn't exist back in The Day when you were making your decisions. Factually, there are more options to building S30 Z cars today than there were when we were kids.

BTW, the engine blocks on these cars have such high nickel content they are about bulletproof and can last nearly forever. I've seen blocks which have sat outside in a farm yard for 11 years with the head off (swallowing rainwater and snow until the pistons seized) get bored-out, boiled, repainted and installed in daily drivers. You *almost* can't kill them.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:41 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm
Posts: 3069
Location: rhode island
It would probably be the best idea to sell everything together being a series one. As for engine stuff, make sure main caps don't get switched around, and you keep the caps together with the rods and heads should stay complete assembled. Some collector might just want it all there. If you sell parts, then some one buys the car, now the search for parts begins, and it will not be as complete. I'm sure someone would buy this all in pieces................how much did you want again. btw..Happy Hollidays Carl.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:15 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
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Location: CT
It would make my day to zee some pictures of this stuff.

PLEASE, still register #4057 whether you sell it or not! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12676
Location: CT
APRIL 2018:

R.P., whatever became of this issue? Were these parts sold? Did the car stay together?

Checking www.ZHome.com classic Z registry I note that 4057 never got registered, altho #4056 in Boulder Colorado is. Update?

Frank

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:29 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm
Posts: 3069
Location: rhode island
Boulder, that's cool, maybe I'll see it one day while visiting family there. #4057 still exist.......barley. I'll be finishing cutting it up this summer, but alot of the good parts are living in my Z............and other people's Z's. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:36 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm
Posts: 3069
Location: rhode island
P.S. I believe Robert is the one I bought #4057 from along with other Z parts, like cars cut in half, and the whole ordeal inspired me to get a bigger truck....that I still have today and looks a whole lot better than it did then. Thanks again for helping the Z community. :D


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