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 Post subject: Restarting old Zs
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
@Nostradamo: Thanks for following me over here. I have some tips about starting your wife's 280ZX you might want to look for when trying to start it.

1. Many engines which have sat unstarted for long periods (yours since 1995?) might be seized. Yours isn't, since you can turn it by hand. You're a step ahead already.
2. Bearing surfaces can become completely dry in less than a year. That means some bearings might have fused themselves to a moving part (such as main journal or rod bearings fusing to the crankshaft, etc). If the engine is run while that exists, there is the chance of one bearing half being spun over or under the other bearing half. That covers the oil passage holes and deprives that part of the engine of lubrication. If you start the engine while the oil passage(s) are blocked, you can ruin the crankshaft within moments.
3. Completely dry engines are metal-on-metal, which creates a strong physical resistance to cranking and running.
4. Any oil which has sat in the pan for 11yrs is bad. You really don't want it circulating thru your engine.
5. Any fuel which has sat for 11 yrs is bad, regardless how much StaBil you use in it. It turns to lacquer and gum and *might* burn, but it won't let the engine run. It can also gum up small openings (like fuel jets) and prevent fuel flow.
6. Some ignition components can oxidize in less than a year, causing one or more cylinders not to spark when intended.

So, what to do?
1. consider all your fuel unusable. Siphon it out of your tank as best you can. Disconnect the fuel line so no bad fuel will be pumped from the tank into your injection system.
2. drain the bad oil out and replace it with good oil. pull your cam cover off and drool good oil all over the length of the camshaft and valve gear. Pull your spark plugs and squirt some lightweight (even penetrating) oil into each cylinder. That coats your dry cylinder walls and loosens your rings. Pulling your engine thru by hand with oil in each cylinder helps coat the cylinder walls with a thin coat of oil. That prevents a 'dry' start which could break your rings. Replace your old plugs with new, good ones, properly gapped.
3. Squirt some starting fluid into your injector's intake and crank the engine. If it fires for you, you know you have everything right except the fuel supply.
4. Put a few gallons of good fuel and some StaBil into your tank and reconnect your fuel line. Start the engine with sprays of starter fluid until it pumps good fuel up to the injectors and runs by itself.

As always, have some dry rags, a fire extinguisher and your cellphone at hand while doing this. Have a helper with you if possible. That way one of you can dial 9-1-1 while the other fights a fire, or applies a compression bandage or strips off your burning shirt :lol: (or whatever). [No joke ~ a friend of mine once spilled fuel in his eyes under the car. If his wife hadn't been there he never could have found the phone, let alone dial 911 for help. Another got his necktie caught in the fan belt and only another kid killing the engine saved him from kissing the fan full on the lips].

Or, you could ask Vinny to come down the road with his trailer and haul your ZX up to his shop to do all that for you.

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: Restarting old Zs
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:42 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:25 am
Posts: 17
Location: danbury,ct
So frank here is the last thing I did per Paul's suggestion. Pulled out plug #1 placed wire as close to read of engine bay grounded to valve cover so when I crank it I can see it(doing it alone) spark seems intermittent. Tried #1 and #2 plug wire simultaneously. Intermittent spark. Or is it me? Blind
Anyhow sprayed throttle body cleaner( had some avail) and engine seems to turn over and dies. So is it a fuel issue? I get fuel from line out of fuel filter. Injectors clogged? Ignition coil or distrib not strong or good? What you think
Since 2005 I have put fresh oil, cleaned tank, fresh trans oil put 2gals of gas and stabil which I drained out last year.
Ps is it safe to keep trying to crank engine regarding internal parts?

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 Post subject: Re: Restarting old Zs
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
Nastro ~

Help me undrstnd some terms we're using here:

"...engine seems to turn over and dies". Engines 'turning over' mean being cranked by the starter, whether that results in catching (running) or not. A car completely out of fuel will turn over as long as the battery lasts, but it will not catch (run) until it gets more fuel. Are you describing the engine freely turning over (being cranked by the starter) but not catching (starting)? Or is the engine cranking, starting briefly, and then dying? If the engine catches and runs at all, even for a brief moment, that indicates you have everything you need to keep it running (intake of usable air/fuel mixture, compression, proper spark at the right time, and exhaust). If it only runs for a few seconds then quits, It is most likely either a fuel delivery issue or a bad ignition switch. If the running engine quits dead the instant you release the ignition key from "start", it's the switch. If the engine runs a bit after you release the key, it's a fuel delivery issue.

"Ps is it safe to keep trying to crank engine regarding internal parts"?

The starter only spins (cranks) the engine to about 400-600 rpm. That is fast enough to make a good oil pump push oil throughout the engine to prevent any serious damage. The valve train is the last location to receive oil. If you remove your oil cap and can see a wet cam, you have oil throughout your engine and no damage should result from further cranking.

What's far more likely is damaging the starter itself. Starters heat up quickly and can melt the solder which connects the internal field windings to the commutator. The centrifugal force of the spinning starter can fling that molten solder off the connections, ruining your starter. To prevent this, crank your starter no longer than 8-10 seconds at a time, allowing it to cool btwn attempts.

Paul is a Certified Master Mechanic and I am only citing my personal experience (and a few years of high school AutoMechanics classes). If we contradict each other on any matter, you should listen to him.

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: Restarting old Zs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:25 am
Posts: 17
Location: danbury,ct
Perfect. Let's clarify terms. I crank the engine after spraying throttle body cleaner and engine sounds like it catches/run for a second but just dies. Then after next few tries without anymore spraying it just cranks. Wondering if the injectors are gunked up. Need to find a way to get cleaner in there to soak. Or what to try next?
Marco

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 Post subject: Re: Restarting old Zs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
Yes, I would agree it *sounds* as if your engine is not getting a constant fuel supply to keep it running. As long as you are spraying a combustible vapor into the intake, the engine runs. When you stop spraying and the cloud of vapor you sprayed in there is used up, the engine starves for fuel and dies.

You should now determine whether your injectors are actually spraying fuel or not. If not, why not? Are they getting enough fuel thru your fuel line / fuel filter, or is it being plugged up when it reaches the injector?

A friend of mine closed the gaps on three of his spark plugs so they wouldn't spark. He then spun the starter and opened/closed the throttle. He did this several times. When he pulled the plugs they were were dry, showing him there was no fuel delivered to his cylinders. It's a start.

It is likely your entire fuel line is dry after 11 yrs and it's taking time for the pump to move fuel from the tank all the way to the fuel injector system. You should be able to see fuel being pulled into the filter (if it's translucent). If you disconnect the fuel line and crank the engine you should see spurts of fuel as the pump works. *ACHTUNG! don't do that in the garage, or close to any water heater or with a hot engine. Try to capture the spurting fuel if possible and examine it. See if it looks and smells like good fuel. It might be that you are delivering bad fuel (varnish) to the engine and it just won't start after sitting for 11 years.

If you can capture an accomplice, you might have them crank while you continuously sprayed starter fluid into the intake. When the engine catches/runs, the assistant lets the key fall back onto RUN while you keep squirting to keep the engine running (roughly). That will at least power a mechanical fuel pump to move fuel up into your fuel injector faster. When it runs by itself, stop spraying, of course. If your car has an electric fuel pump in the tank, simply turn the ignition to ON and let the pump run until it slows or stops, which signifies the lines are full of fuel.

As always when working with fuel, be prepared for a flash fire of any size. A clean rag to cover the fuel injector intake can stop a throttle fire before it causes any damage. A fire extinguisher at hand can put out your shirt before it burns you. Always work with a helper (preferably someone who loves you and won't laugh as you burn :twisted: ).

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 Post subject: Re: Restarting old Zs
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 5:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:25 am
Posts: 17
Location: danbury,ct
Frank, **success** :P got it started! I had to pull fuel rail and clean out all injectors and voila! Started on first crank. Injectors prob gunked up..
So next steps I need to flush/clean radiator. Flush power steering,transm fluid,brake flush.Check calipers and slowly change all vacuum and other hoses.
I think I'm on the right track.What do you think?
It want to say thanks for all your help. When she is on the road maybe I'll drive it to a club meeting!

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 Post subject: Re: Restarting old Zs
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:19 pm
Posts: 1644
nostradamo wrote:
Frank, **success** :P got it started! I had to pull fuel rail and clean out all injectors and voila! Started on first crank. Injectors prob gunked up..
So next steps I need to flush/clean radiator. Flush power steering,transm fluid,brake flush.Check calipers and slowly change all vacuum and other hoses.
I think I'm on the right track.What do you think?
It want to say thanks for all your help. When she is on the road maybe I'll drive it to a club meeting!



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 Post subject: Re: Restarting old Zs
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
:mrgreen: :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: HOORAYY!! Another Z brought back to life! The world is now a slightly better place.

I think you're doing very well on your own, and I congratulate you. Remember your clutch system is hydraulic too, so while you're under there, you might as well drain and replace it. Fluid should look no darker than weak tea. If it looks like strong coffee, change it. Also, it doesn't take 11yrs for the fluid to corrupt the rubber seals and reservoir top, so make sure they are OK, or just replace them. Easily ordered and not horribly expensive. Rebuild kits are available but new parts are just quicker and nowhere near the hassle of a rebuild.

Our old 240 carz have a specific pattern for bleeding the brakes. If we don't follow the numbers religiously, we are never happy with the results. I don't know about your ZX, but you should read your manual before bleeding them; there might be a sequence.

I wish we had a smilie of two clapping hands, you've earned it!

Frank

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