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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:26 am
Posts: 13
Location: Poughquag, New York
I was hoping somebody has had a similar issue and could point me in the right direction:

1978 280z 5 speed, just purchased. A couple weeks ago it rained heavily for a day and a half which washed away most of the road salt. I decided to take it out and work on my downshifting for a while (learning manual transmission). When I was done I stalled out in the driveway (poor clutch control), restarted it and parked it in the garage. When I went to take it out again, I turned the headlights on and tried to start it. Now it won't turn over and the headlamps and turn signals do not operate. Parking lights do work though. I never started it with the headlamps on before.

I tested the battery (11.95) and replaced it. Connections good. Even though the battery wasnt that bad I wanted to replace it.

Ordered new fusible links because a couple were in bad shape. While waiting for delivery I tested the old links with a multimeter. Voltage was fine. Replaced links, still won't start.

Tested fuse box with multimeter. No juice to top left four fuse blocks.

Any help in pointing me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. If I can get her started, I am going to have the whole car looked at by a pro.

Thanks,

Rich v.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:54 am 
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Location: CT
I'm trying to find some schematics for the '78 electrical system, but in the meantime ~ did you try for current while the key was ON and OFF? If the 36 year old ignition switch is getting a little sloppy, it might not be making good contact on every key-turn. Wiggle the key in the ON position and zee if that changes anything.

And,

Does your car have two plastic relay boxes on the passenger side of the wheel well (in the engine bay)? Those have fuses in them which can fail if water gets into them.

Electrical problems are easier to trace if you eliminate what ISN'T wrong. Make a list of what works ~ Horn? Directionals? Radio? Wipers? Seatbelt chimes? etc etc. Then make a similar list of what you can't make work. When we locate a good copy of a '78 280Z electrical schematic, it will make it easier for us to pin down where the problem lies.

By the way ~ off subject ~ because you now own a Z and mentioned rain and Z in the same sentence, please be advised that Champion spark plugs, rain and Z cars NEVER go together well. They would certainly not cause what you are describing here, but for reasons unknown to science, Champions refuse to allow a Z to start or run well in anything except perfect weather. NGK plugs are always best, followed by Nippon Densu and Bosch. Just FYI.

Frank

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1970 240Z


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:26 am
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Location: Poughquag, New York
Frank,

I have the wiring diagram for the 78 as well as the service manuals. I will check under the relay box this evening.

Thanks again


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
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Location: CT
Good ~ keep us posted. In the meantime, maybe someone who has had the same problem can help talk us thru this.

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1970 240Z


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:58 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:26 am
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Location: Poughquag, New York
No luck,

There are two units which each contain two fusible links. Both units are attached to a box which houses relays. There are no fuses in this box. By the way, besides the fact that it wont turn over, the headlamps (low and high beam) and turn signals do not work with the key in the off, acc, or on positions. The fuse blocks for these (four top left in the box) do not have juice with the key in the off, acc, or on positions either. Wipers, antenna, and aftermarket stereo havent worked since I picked up the car. I will do some reasearch on how to test relays.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:05 pm 
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Location: CT
OK, we're on the right track to locate the problem now. Somewhere all these non-workers will have a common power source or tributary which is open. We just have to find it on a schematic, then look at it in person. Might be a switch or something.
[For example, the early 1970 cars seem to have run everything thru the 4-way flasher switch, for some reason. If that switch eventually failed, several systems blacked out. Datsun improved the system many times since then, so I wouldn't suspect that particular switch in your case. But that's the basic way to approach these electrical gremlins]. Because you have several items not working, I suspect this will be easier to trace back to a faulty point. Sometimes the MultiSwitch ('headlamp switch') can cause multiple failures, too.

I have to study a '78 schematic, to trace each of the circuits you named. Where they meet will be the first place I recommend you look.

Were you able to determine if power is flowing thru those fusible link relays in your engine bay? They're fuses in my case; your improved fusible links could still fail, blacking out a number of electrical items. If you show an open across those blocks, your search might be over already.

(Also, do you have an electric fan, and if so, did it work when the engine ran? And how about the heater/defroster fan? Interior lights and gauges?)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:26 am
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Location: Poughquag, New York
Frank,

I found the wiring diagram in color (much easier to use than black and white). We have a 42" plotter printer at work, so I printed a large copy to use as a reference. I traced some of the wires coming out of the fuse box and then took the diagram to our auto shop. One of our mechanics took some time and did his own wire tracing and explained everything to me. He gave me some homework to do but he thinks the culprit is most likely the ignigtion relay.

I will let you know how it turns out.

Thanks again,

Rich

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1978 280Z


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Ain't it great to have friends in important places?
:D

Please keep us updated ~ this is interesting.

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1970 240Z


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:30 pm 
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Location: CT
DANG! I just spent 1/2hour tracing wires on a 280 schematic, before I noticed they gave me a 1976 when I asked for a 1978. :x

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:09 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm
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Location: rhode island
Some times you have to take the main connections of the back of the fuse block and clean them. Also check any grounds that could be on a rusty surface.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:55 pm
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Location: Westport, CT
I experienced similar odd things not working and opted to start with the cheap and cheerful first. Replaced the relays and that solved one problem. The ignition accessory relay was the culprit. Replaced the ignition switch located on the steering column and that solved everything else. I suspect it's a good idea to replace this stuff while the parts are readily available and it won't break the bank or take too long. :thumbs_up:

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1980 280ZX 2+2
2003 350z Touring
2005 350Z Touring - Silverstone Gray
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:12 pm 
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Location: CT
Makes logical sense, Phil.
The Z Car Club of Rochester uses a guy local to them who rebuilds those stalk headlamp switches (MultiSwitches) for about $100 each. He does a remarkable job ~ you cannot distinguish his finished product from NEW, regardless how worn your switch is when you send it to him.

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1970 240Z


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Location: CT
And I just had a weird thought ~ does anyone know if they used that stupid 'clutch safety switch' on the 1978 cars? I know some of the very early ZX cars required you to fully depress the clutch or the engine would not even turn over and many electrical systems were disabled. Push the clutch clear to the floor and try starting it, just to take that possibility off our list, please?

Also, some of the aftermarket alarm systems could duplicate the symptoms you quote. You don't see an alarm system on your car, do you Rich?

Just thinking out loud.

Frank

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:55 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
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Location: CT
Hmmmm.....I don't want to muddy the waters any more than they already are, but I have just heard about a NEUTRAL SAFETY SWITCH on certain manual gearboxes used in the late 260s and early 280s. :? Never heard of them before.

Here's a blatantly stolen post (made by Dave C, one of our members) from Classic Z about this matter:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/elec ... speed.html

So, Rich ~ while you're calmly eliminating one thing after another, would you kindly mind placing your gearbox in neutral and then trying to start the car? And PLEASE tell us if that actually makes any difference!? I've never heard of a safety switch on any manual shift gearbox before, but you did say your car had a 5 speed. That might have come out of a later year car, which might have incorporated this weird switch. (?) After all, this was your maiden voyage with the car and maybe the PO didn't tell you everything about it.....?

I also just learned about the high-gear switch on the 280Z. They were becoming complicated beasts.

Frank

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:41 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:26 am
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Location: Poughquag, New York
The car does not have an alarm system. From what I can tell, the only aftermarket equipment is a Pioneer AM/FM/CD player which does not function. Extra wires indicate the PO had a speaker box of some sort attached.

Each time I start the car, I am in neutral with the clutch fully depressed. I will read up on the clutch safety switch, however I don't see how that would prevent the headlamps from working. I will also read up on the neutral safety switch.

Last night I removed the ignition relay to have one of the mechanics at work check it. When he went over the wiring schematics the other day he thought this was most likely the culprit or possiblly the ignition switch or the wires/connector leading from the fusible links to the ignition relay (see connector #C9 on the wiring schematics). When he went over it with me, it made perfect sense. When I went over it last night I could no longer see how this would affect the headlamps. However, he knows what he is talking about and I don't (yet!).

Will advise on outcome of checking the ignition relay, hopefully he has time today. Will also do testing anda thorough cleaning of these connectors and the fuseblocks. Too much snow shoveling yesterday to spend quality time crunched up in the car.

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