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 Post subject: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:18 pm
Posts: 8
Looking for a nice series 1 car if anyone knows of someone that might want to sell.


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12897
Location: CT
Well, this is exactly the smart time of year to buy one.
By Series 1 we gather you are looking for something built prior to March 1971, yes? Not willing to consider later (Series II) models?
Frank

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1970 240Z


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12897
Location: CT
Here's one of our members who started selling his 1970 car last year, but I never heard that it was bought. He has done a ton of work to it but like everyone married with kids, other priorities overwhelmed him and sad to say the car didn't get finished. It runs, it has Webers, there is no visible rust (I've spent an hour looking it over) there are lots of spares and the man is worthy mechanic. He has other interests which are encroaching into his Z space. He had to get rid of something and I guess the Z lost the coin-toss. I couldn't find this post immediately because he listed it under General Z Discussion instead of Cars For Sale:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Datsun-Z- ... 1438.l2649

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8824&p=59794#p59794

If I was in the market for another Series 1 car, this would be the one I'd focus on.
Don't know if it's still available yet, but I never heard it was sold.
Frank

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1970 240Z


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:10 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:18 pm
Posts: 8
Thanks for the reply Frank. Yes, have my heart set on a Series 1 car. Checked out the link you included in your last post. I'm looking for something very stock. That car does not have a matching engine unfortunately and has some major mods to it over stock.


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:27 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12897
Location: CT
Ahh, well....that narrows the field down a bit. Are you looking for all-original or RESTORED to original? Do you want a show / investor car or a driver?

There are fewer than 2,000 HLS30 (lhd) Series-1 240Zs estimated to remain in the WORLD, and possibly closer to 1,000. Datsun only made about 10,000-11,000 cars the first production year (Oct69-Sep70) and the huge majority of those are gone (accidents, rust outs, died and crushed, etc). Most of the remainders are NOT stock but people recogniZe the scarcity of the '69-'70 cars and have restored several hundred of them to stock specs nation-wide. So anything made before March 1971 will be the most-expensive Zs you can ask for.

I know of only a handful of actual, unrestored, original 1970 240Zs (and a museum of restored 1969 cars) and all of them hover in the $30,000 - $60,000 range, depending on condition and provenance. One of our members in Florida owns 22 totally restored 2-and 3-digit VIN cars (including #16), some owned by famous people (Paul Newman, for example). Those cars are considered the top-dollar Series-1 cars in the USA. Two other members (One in Webster NY and another in Richardson TX) own Nationally-acknowledged Best of Show restored 1970 cars. Those cars took years to restore and are worth far more to their owners than the $60k market today. Another of our members in NJ owns and drives a perfectly-stock 1970 car, which even had the original tires on it last time I saw it! (I wouldn't have trusted those to drive from NJ to CT and back, but he made it). Another Summer 1970 car is completely original (cobwebs and all) in NY, but doesn't run. One of our CT members owns HLS30-00013 ("Lucky 13") which is the first lhd Z made for sale to the USA. It's all-original and has been 'serviced' (not modified) to be a driver again. Datsun has offered 6 figures for it but it isn't considered for sale last I knew. That owner has some other very-early 240s which were damaged by falling trees during a storm years ago; one of them was completely original and had fewer than 35,000 miles on it. :(

Datsun sold more than 35,000 1971 cars (VIN numbers higher than about 11,000), and the cars made btwn Oct70 and Mar71 are nearly identical to the 1970 cars, except that the bodies are stronger and they weigh a few hundred pounds more. They are far more plentiful and accordingly, a lot cheaper than the original 1970 model. At the end of calendar year 1970 some of the final 1970 cars were registered as 1971 cars, and some of the first 1971 cars were registered as 1970 cars, so you can have the stronger 1971 body and still legally call it a 1970 car. They still had the higher compression E31 head (making 151 bhp) and initially used the original 4spd gearbox. After Mar71 they had a better 4-spd, better seats, a slightly modified dashboard and instruments, FM radio, a different steering wheel, rear glass defroster and cabin air vents, and could have AC (and even later, AT). Please forgive me if you already know all this; I am only trying to describe the differences of the early cars. Many people read this forum and some of them are not aware of the differences in the early cars.

So, can you help us narrow down the search any?

Frank

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1970 240Z


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:29 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:27 pm
Posts: 61
Location: CT 06514
There are zero mods over stock that cannot be removed. Also remember the early engines had crank issues and most s1 cars don't have original engines. Feel free to shoot me a PM to discuss if your interested.

Steve
SteveG wrote:
Thanks for the reply Frank. Yes, have my heart set on a Series 1 car. Checked out the link you included in your last post. I'm looking for something very stock. That car does not have a matching engine unfortunately and has some major mods to it over stock.

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HLS30-10558


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:18 pm
Posts: 8
Frank, ideally, I'm looking for an original car, with original paint, nice original interior and no structural rust issues. If you know of anyone that has a car like that who might be open to selling, I would appreciate if you could put me in touch with them. Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:24 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:38 pm
Posts: 539
Location: Orange, CT
SteveG wrote:
Frank, ideally, I'm looking for an original car, with original paint, nice original interior and no structural rust issues. If you know of anyone that has a car like that who might be open to selling, I would appreciate if you could put me in touch with them. Steve

Steve I believe your looking for a rare car indeed.
My Z is a series 1 version 2 Nov 70 build.
Since these are the first and hence oldest the most has happened to them corrosion and modification wise.
This summer I was doing a fender swap and found major rot in structural areas.
Don’t be surprise if a car looks great and has issues where you can’t see. It’s just part of how they were made as Frank has said many times so eloquently.
Be prepared to pay a lot if you can find what you your looking for.
Occasionally they do pop up on eBay or bring a trailer.

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Nov/70 late series one HLS3014777 Sunshine Yellow 919


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:19 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:18 pm
Posts: 8
Can the rust issues be spotted on inspection in most cases? Say when the car is up on a lift?


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12897
Location: CT
BTW Steve, there are 35 perfectly-restored Datsun S30 Heritage Program cars which were completely rebuilt to original 1970 specs by the Datsun factory in 2002, and re-titled as new vehicles. They are far better than any personal restoration and left the factory with a 12/12,000 total warranty. They were issued new VINs and could be considered in the same vein as the factory-authorized "continuation cars" of the D-Jag, the DB4GT Aston Martins, and the CSX Cobras (at about 1/10th the price :lol: )

The 240Z was so overwhelmingly popular that everything that followed in its wake paled by comparison. Customers longed for the chance to own a "new" 240z again, 30+ years later. Datsun bought up a fleet of privately owned 240s in good shape for $10,000 each. They spent months rebuilding them to as-new factory specs, retitled them as new cars and only sold 37 of them before realizing how much they were losing with the project. Price was $25k but they have increased in value to modern rates today. Datsun lost a ton of money on each of these cars so the program failed. US NTSB also complained the "new 1970" car didn't meet current safety standards, and modifying the old 240 to meet modern standards simply would have destroyed the car.

There are 35 of those very-precious Heritage Restoration cars owned by individuals today. They appear in car shows all around the USA every year, and always walk off with trophies. If you can find one of those, you might be happy with it. They are like owning a "new" 1970 car with a few thousand miles on it.

Our member (and PreZident of the Internet Z Car Club) Carl Beck in Florida is widely considered the foremost "Z-authority" in the USA. Carl has a registry of old 240Zs still extant, by VIN. Surely there are more than he has registered but his research has been commendable and the list is outstanding. His lifetime work is the reason we can accurately predict how many of the original 11,000 1970 cars still exist today.

You can find an article about those 35 Heritage cars in his website, "Z Home". If anyone would know where to find one of the Heritage cars for sale, it would be Carl; https://www.zhome.com

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1970 240Z


Last edited by Frank T on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12897
Location: CT
Yes you can find the rust if you know where to look, and carry a magnet to detect any BondO under the paint.

There are early-rust-out areas on the S30 body (240, 260, 280). They are:
(1) frame rails
(2) floorboards
(3) battery box
(4) cowl cavity/ wiper motor valley ("the web")
(5) rear hatch lock deck
(6) doglegs behind each door
(7) lower front fenders behind wheels

If you don't find rust in those particular areas, you have a good chance of getting a "rust-free" Z (I've only ever seen ONE). There are other, lesser areas (spare tire wheel well, door bottoms, wheel arches, etc) but generally speaking, the rust begins at those 7 main areas. There are tons of good YouTube videos submitted by Z owners who are rust-hunting around their S30s. They know where to look and will show you the extent of damage which needs to be repaired.

The sheetmetal on the early S-1 cars was only 0.27" thick in most places. Winter road salt ate thru that like craZy, which is why the best original cars today come from California and the southwest. As our CTZCC Executive Advisor Bob Sharp told us, "metallurgy was never their strong point". Bob sold and raced Datsuns for his entire adult career and won 6 SCCA and IMSA world championships in them.

They are great cars in every way and an exciting blast to drive. They are simply too allergic to the TinWorm. That's primarily why it's so hard to find a really good pristine example today, which is original and not rebuilt. "Lucky 13" (HLS30-00013) is about the only car I've ever personally seen which was totally original with no rust. It is the lowest VIN 240Z ever sent to America and was the first commercial 240Z off the factory assembly line, 22Oct69. It is a national icon to all Z owners and is a true survivor; cleaned and mechanically refreshed (new brakes, tires, hoses, radiator, etc) but not restored. As such, it has to be the most-valuable 240Z in the USA. We are very proud to have the car in our Club.

Datsun long ago offered to buy Lucky 13 for 6 figures, but our member didn't let it go. Recent life changes might make him rethink that, but at last glance he still had the car. In my personal experience, #13 is the only car which fulfills your request; completely original with no rust.

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1970 240Z


Last edited by Frank T on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12897
Location: CT
It occurs to me that if you are highly motivated to find an outstanding ORIGINAL 240z, you might want to commission a professional to find one for you.

Locally, we have Wayne Carini ("Chasing Classic Cars") at F40 Motorsports in tiny Portland CT. Wayne travels the world finding and buying world-class cars and is exposed to hundreds he never buys. He is not a Datsun fan but most certainly has seen a lot of them in his travels. His website tells you more about him if you haven't already seen him on TV:

http://www.f40.com/index.php

Wayne is a wild guy, loves to talk cars and treats everyone like they were his backyard neighbor. Call him @ 869.342.5705 to discuss having him find you the perfect Z for your needs. When I become rich and famous :roll: and ready to buy my first Maserati 3500GT, Wayne will be the guy who finds it for me.

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1970 240Z


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:24 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Webster, NY
Hi fellas....

There is LOTS of misinformation and mutation of the facts of the "Series One" Datsun 240Zs. I've been researching this topic since I began the search for my 1970 series one car in 1979. Here's what I've come up with.

* The "series one" Datsun 240Z was produced from October 1969 to January 1971.
* In the time period 10/69 - 12/69 around 500 were built and sold from the factory. These early cars had many "hand made" parts that make them unique to later cars.
* In total, approximately 19,000 series one 240Zs were built.
* Out of the 19,000 series one cars around 9900 were titled as "1970" models. A handful of the 1969 build date cars were titled as "1969" but it is very few, most were titles as "1970". The remainder of the series one cars, those sold after August 1970, were generally titled as "1971" models. This was the sales practice in the USA and allowed dealers to increase the price to correspond with the new model year.
* I spent a lot of time on Datsun forums, internet pages, interviewing experts etc attempting to determine just how many "1970" models remain today, series one cars in general. Based on feedback from the community and data that could be found, I found that based on the huge attrition rate of the early 240Zs (damage, accidents, RUST, etc) that around 10% driveable cars remain today. That would mean less than a thousand "1970" models and less than two thousand total series one cars. A virtual handful of show worthy cars further reduce the number.

So when you wonder why the price of the early 240Zs in going through the roof, it is simple supply and demand. There just aren't many nice ones around anymore. Remember, this was a $3500 car, Nissan did not build them to be around 50 years later, nor did owners treat them as such. They were bought cheap, driven hard, put away wet and eventually disappeared.

If you have one keep it. If you want one, buy it quickly.

FWIW
JT

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John Taddonio
President, Z Car Club of Rochester NY
zcarnut@hotmail.com
FB: Zccr zcarclubofrochester


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:18 pm
Posts: 8
Thank you all for the excellent responses and advice! Great information.


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 Post subject: Re: Series 1 240z
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12897
Location: CT
Hi John! Merry Christmas, buddy.
Steve, John owns one of those two perfectly-restored Nationally-known 1970 cars I mentioned earlier. His is the equivalent of a what Corvette would call a "Top Flight" achievement. His car has been used as an advertiZing magnet by RockAuto car parts, the only Datsun Z car to be so acknowledged.

Datsun never actually used the terms "Series-1" or "Sales Year" in reference to the Z. Those are terms we Yanks borrowed from the XK-E production, and from our own annual car sales schemes. We try to transfer the American term "sales year" to Datsun sales, but the Japanese didn't actually think that way.

Official Datsun sales figures of the HLS (lhd) cars for the first 12 months (Oct69-Sep70) (what I unofficially call their "first production year") was almost 10,000 240Z units. More than 7,000 of those first 240Zs were delivered to the USA; the rest of the world shared the remaining units (about 3,000 of them). You can see why there are so very few left today; there were very few of them to begin with, and John is spot-on about nobody expecting them to last 50 years for $3400.

Btwn Oct70 and Jan1971, new Zs got arbitrarily registered as either 1970 or 1971 cars, at the discretion of the dealer or buyer. During those 4 months several changes occurred in the cars, including wiring, seats, electrical upgrades (headlamp ziggers), instrument gauges, radios, steering wheels, A/C and gearbox options, etc. I refer to those cars as "interim" cars (my own phrase), because they were neither 100% 1970, nor were they 100% 1971. You could look at them month to month and notice new evolutions. The cabin ventilation system was a good example; the rear deck vents moved to the side pillars, but the vertical hatch defroster remained vertical until the 1971 model changed it to horizontal.

By Spring 1971 the car was clearly an improved version of of the lighter 1970 cars, but the body was heavier due to strengthening supports. They changed the engine head from the E31 to the lower compression E88, upgraded the gearbox, changed the console, seats, dashboard, gauges, and installed secret storage boxes under the rear carpet. In my own terminology, that's when I begin calling them "Series-II" cars, but again, the Japanese never used that term. Some people simply refer to the whole 5-year 240Z production as "Series-I", but to me only the first 12 months of production deserve that (made-up) term. During the 12 month calendar year 1971, they sold about 35,000 240Zs (whichever "Series" you chooZe to call them) and they were really good cars, having worked out a lot of the earlier bugs and improved the electrical system a lot. A "late 1970" is a good car to own and a 1971 car should not make you feel guilty about making slight road modifications to it. Carving up any 240Z with a VIN below 10,000 should be punishable. :evil:

John and Carl Beck still love me and, even tho they disagree with my figures, we still shake hands when we meet. :lol:

Frank T

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