Frank,
No intention of rudeness, but nothing could be further from the truth. I pride myself about my knowledge of the Vintage Z program, the Dream Garage ad campaign, and the Z-Store program. Send me your address and I'll send you my research paper. I'ld like to correct Carl as well on a few points. The 300ZX completed its design term in the United States as it no longer met side impact requirements. To exacerbate the issue, the Japanese yen soared to record values and the 300ZX base price rose to over $37,000. Sales dropped off sharply and Nissan was left with a considerable quantity of lease trade-ins. In August 1996, TBWA Chiat/Day announced a 200 million dollar national ad campagn; "Nissan's Rich Heritage and Innovation Renders New Brand Marketing Campaign". The Dream Garage commercial was aired August 4th during the closing ceremonies of the Olympic Games in Atlanta. The Nissan U.S.A. "Z-Store" began in November 1996 and marketed pre-owned, certified 300ZXs, a line of accessories, and the Vintage Z. The initial restoration goal was 200 cars on a ten / month production basis. Four private businesses were contracted with Nissan U.S.A. to restore the cars to new condition, ultimately, however the production goal could not be met. (I like to think that it was the weather that fundimentally caused this) The cars were not "restored" in the classic sense of the word. They were disassembled and re-assembled with over 80,000 new parts. An entire line of "restoration" parts became available as a result of the Dream Garage campaign.

All my best to a great conversation!

Chris

_________________
Her Majesty the 26th HLS30U-00026
Princess Ziesta HLS30U-00027
Enjoy the Ride

BUT SERIOUSLY FOLKS,

I would love to have all that have contributed to this discussion join us for ZCCR's All Japanese Classic Weekend on July 9-11. There have already been feelers from national publications to attend the event and publish articles about it. I'm sure that a "round table discussion" of you esteemed 240Z "experts" ( and you know who you are ) would be most interesting! I look forward to some face-to-face dialogue.

Full details of the event will be posted on our website in the next week or so.

This could be something special indeed!

_________________
John Taddonio
1970 240Z
1977 530Z
1984 300ZXT
zcarnut@hotmail.com
FB: Zccr zcarclubofrochester

To the individual, perhaps. BUT when all is said and done, a stock series one 240Z will always be worth more than a modified one.

LS1 nonwithstanding.

_________________
John Taddonio
1970 240Z
1977 530Z
1984 300ZXT
zcarnut@hotmail.com
FB: Zccr zcarclubofrochester

Carl,
I've subscribed to Car Collector magazine for many years now and enjoy looking at the results of the various auctions they cover. The ratings they use of "condition 1", "condition 2", etc. never seem to be defined for the benefit of the casual observer. What are the definitions of these conditions? And how would a low mileage all original car fair? In other words, an all original car in prisitine shape (let's say for arguments sake a 500 mile car) would still be marked down for the aging appearance of it's paint, plating, discolored interior plastic etc.?

John T,
Are there any Rochester area events this season that we should know about? You really need to do a better job of promoting them if there are any.

_________________
Ross Williams
1978 280Z Black Pearl Edition 38k Original Miles

I'll work on that Ross.....

I wouldn't want anyone to say that they didn't know about them!

_________________
John Taddonio
1970 240Z
1977 530Z
1984 300ZXT
zcarnut@hotmail.com
FB: Zccr zcarclubofrochester

26th Z ~ Thank you for this, Chris. Do you know what the projected sales price was supposed to be for the Resto 240 cars at that time?

Good to hear from you ~ our best to Her Majesty.

WOA, what did I start!?!?!?!



First of all I am honored to share a thread with Carl Beck. While we have never met I have benefited from all the info that you have shared with the internet community.

Every "asset" has a book value and then a current market value. Finance people make money by exploiting the discrepancies between the two. No doubt today's supply and demand determines how much we can get for our beloved cars right now. But I would never buy a Z low and then sell it low... As a result I don't use today's market prices as my primary indication of value.

Plus I feel very strongly that 240z's are collectible cars. Given their history, significance, performance, production numbers, amazing ability to rust, etc the prices are bound to go up over the long term.

This whole discussion about carving early cars up and whatnot is really moot. I am sure when the prices of 240z's goes through the roof someday people will fall all over themselves to dump their LS1's and return their cars to original condition.

My other car is a 1994 Mazda RX7 that I am putting a Chevy V8 into. Mazda only made the FD RX7 for 3 years in the US... 93-95. Mazda guys think it is horrible that I am dumping the unreliable rotary for a V8. Obviously I really don't care what they think. I want my car my way.

And that is what makes this country great.

Thanks everybody.

_________________
1972 Datsun 240z #88178

("...amazing ability to rust...") I loved that.

Here's a pretty convenient example of what we're discussing. This NH fellah has done SOME RestoMod to his non-matching '71, and is asking $17K.

http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/1610897551.html

I happen to feel he's about right. I suspect he will settle for closer to $15K in this current economy, but I think he's in the ballpark with this car. I do note, however, that he has not mentioned the "R" word in his ad.

Frank

[quote="Carl Beck"]
Five years from now - you will be very lucky to find any #4 Condition 240Z for anything less than $15K. Solid #3 Condition Z's will over the $25K mark and you will see #1 examples selling for $75K+.]

Uuuups, $25K for a #3condition classic Z in 2015? I think, I should get another one, before it's too late.
BWT: in Germany the value of a condition #1 is given currently with 16,000 euros (21.600 USD).
It would interest me where and from whom Nissan has bought the vehicles which were restored later to vintage Z's. Were the vehicles from private property and in which condition? Does anyone know?

Thorsten

_________________
T. Link
Germany
1971 240z (HLS30-16506)

Hi Thor:
Nissan purchased "most" of the car from private individuals. A couple came from Les Cannaday and off the top of my head I recall that one belonged to a Nissan Employee.

I attempted to help the Nissan Buyer find good cars - but due to the $3,500.00 limit set for the purchase price it was very difficult indeed. A friend of mine owned HLS30 00240 and I tried to get them to purchase that car for the Charity Auction they hand planned.... but it was too expensive.

Hope you have been watching the Olympics.. great competition this year!

FWIW,
Carl B.

Funny, we were recently discussing who might own car# 240! I think it was Rick and I about a week ago.

I sure wouldn't mind owing 240 #240!

Hi Ross:
Like you, I enjoy Car Collector Magazine a great deal. Wonderful photography and print quality.
I really do not know what definitions they use. I'll ask....




Well that sentence is somewhat compound...
"If" a car is "original" ie. as it left the factory - then every aspect of it would be "as new". That is to say that originally the paint didn't have an aging appearance nor discolored interior plastic, so it isn't actually all original {judged from a standard of -as it left the factory} is it.

A 78 Black Pearl Edition with some 600+ miles on it that a friend of mine had {matter of fact a couple friends owned it at one time or another} - was indeed a #1 Condition Car - on which everything was original and as it left the factory. There was no deterioration of anything.

I think the way these issues may be resolved, or perhaps are being resolved is via the creation of a "Survivor Class". In the Survivor Class the car would not be judged "as it left the factory" - but rather judged as it left the factory and with the accumulated "pinta". Indeed refinishing anything to "as it originally left the factory" would cause a loss of judging points, as would replacing anything with a an otherwise correct NOS part.

The real discussion that I have had with several serious collectors - is the difficulty of drawing the line between "pinta" and "deterioration". Is the car a near perfect survivor or just an exceptionally clean used car?

There are serious Collectors that love these Survivors, there are Collectors that love Perfect Original Examples and Collectors that love 95+ point Judged #1 Cars. So far I have seen the Perfect Original Examples bring the most money, followed by the Judged #1 Cars with the few Survivors coming in behind #2 Condition cars.

From the cars I've seen - one thing that hold the prices of the few Survivors down - is that at some point in the past - some element of the car was actually refinished, touched-up, changed. So they were not technically 100% original Survivors either..

At present how to place an accurate value on all these very fine details seems to be up to the buyer.

FWIW,
Carl B.

Carl, please forgive my shortcomings, but I don't know that I have heard
the term "pinta" before. Could you help me out? It sounds very similar
to "patina" which I have heard. Could they be related in some way?

All Z Best,......................................Kathy & Rick

Hi Frank:
I think the current owner has had it for so long - he really didn't want to sell it - but would have if the price was right. The problem is it needs a complete restoration - has rust issues in the floorboards and other places. It isn't too bad and would be will worth doing... Who knows, today it might be worth what he wanted in 96... unless he has raised his expectations..
FWIW,
Carl B.

Hi MarkA-S30
Well it looks like you started a discussion that interests many people.



Thank-you. I have to admit that in many ways I've been very lucky in many regards with my association with the Datsun 240Z and the entire Z Car Community. It has been nothing but a pleasure sharing a common interest with so many great people.




Way off topic - but an interesting side note.
The Shelby Cobra was nothing more than a V8 Swap into a sports car.. so the mold was cast.

We all know that the Cobra Daytona Coupe was the creation of Peter Brock and Bob Negstad when working for Shelby America. Then years later they participated with Superformance in South Africa to recreate the Cobra Daytona Coupe - incorporating the changes that he and Bob wanted to make at the time, but which Shelby didn't want to spend the money on..

Anyway - Peter just swapped out the 427 Ford that was in his Daytona Coupe - for an LS7 !! He reports that the swap is nothing short of transformational!! Then there is the Chevy engine in his Datsun 510 too.... So I think your in very good company along with the Guys at HybridZ...

FWIW,
Carl B.