The market value of any Datsun 240Z in America today is dependent upon its actual condition. Its actual condition may include a hundred or more fine details being taken into consideration.

If we use the most common condition guide's definitions - that being those outlined years ago in the Old Cars Price Guide; See: http://Zome.com/Buying/OldCarsPriceGuide.htm

A true #1 Condition Datsun 240Z will bring $35K to $45K today. A couple changed hands before Sept. 2008 in the $65K range.

A true #2 Condition Datsun 240Z will bring $25K to $35K today.

It should be completely understood that true #1 and #2 examples are few and far between. They very rarely ever become available for public sale. The people that have them simply keep them. Most that change hands do so among a small circle of friends - that already have other friends waiting to buy them if the owner ever decides to sell.

Condition #3 Cars comprise a far broader group - and could be divided into upper, middle and lower #3 Condition really. There are perhaps twenty times as many of these cars as their are #1 and #2 cars put together. So the market values cover a broad range. Perhaps $12K to $25K. What any specific one is "worth" or what its market value would be expected to be - would depend upon the actual condition of a hundred or more details.

If anything is true right at this point - it would be that many of these cars are being sold today at depressed prices. As the economy recovers along around 2012 or beyond - it will be hard to find high end #3 Condition examples for anything less than $20K.

Two Many Datsun 240Z's??? About 155,000 were sold in the US between 70 and the end of 73. Chevy built and sold 155,000 1957 Bel Air's {not 57 Chevy's - just Bel Airsl}. I don't hear anyone saying that they will never be worth anything because too many of them were made. In the U.S. Market where 15,000,000 new cars were being sold every year - 155K of anything would be considered "limited production". While the 57 Chevy is much loved today - it didn't change the complexion of the American Auto Market - the Datsun 240Z did !

A 240Z that would sell for $16,500.00 or more today - could have been bought in 1988 for $4,500.00. A Vintage Z Program car that had a window sticker of $23,995.00 in 1998 - changed hands for $45K last year.

Five years from now - you will be very lucky to find any #4 Condition 240Z for anything less than $15K. Solid #3 Condition Z's will over the $25K mark and you will see #1 examples selling for $75K+.

It is just the natural progression of Classic, Collectible and Special Interest cars... At one point many years ago people wondered if 55, 56, 57 T-Birds would ever be worth more than $18K. Same for the M/B 230/250/280 SL? No one ever thought they would see the day that a big Healey would sell for $100K or more... I certainly never thought that anyone would pay $50K + for a 62 Corvette for goodness sakes... now you have a very hard time finding one at that low a price.

Bottom line - don't confuse the junk you see sold on E-Bay with serious Collector Level cars... Don't confuse "Drivers" with Collector Level examples either. You can still find good #4 condition drivers on the West Coast for $4,500.00 to $6,500.00.

FWIW,
Carl B.

You just made me feel a lot better about my own car, Carl.

And about my own personal values concerning these wonderful old Zs.

Thank you, sir.

Frank

Here is how I see it and those who are older would know better. Please excuse what I am about to say if it comes across the wrong way but it is the internet and it is hard to capture the intent behind the words on the screen.

Again, I will stand behind my statement by saying only a selected few people out there today makes the "value" market of a 240z. Why do I say this? I know of a few of the cars that have changed hands for big money and they were top notch Z cars. At the same token, when Randy tried to sell a 6000 mile 73 240z, the car couldn't fetch $25k?! I don't care if the car isn't a 70 model....you are telling me an original 6000 mile 73 car isn't worth $25k but a restored 70 car should be worth $50k, no way. When I state there were too many Z cars made for them to be worth anyting, I meant it as for as vs cars of its time not the value not increasing over time. I wouldn't expect the car value to remain the same year to year.

Datsun Z cars a whole is not a true "collector" as in the sense of a car that can be turned around for profit. Again, the cars value Carl speaks of to me is for those who can afford/want the car because it COST that much to restore one. You are buying a finish product. If you restored a Z for $10k and was able to sell it for $50k, than you have something going.

Reality is economy and age of buyers plays a huge role in the value. The cars will naturally go up in value because of the age of the car and the harder it gets to find clean examples of this car. With that said, the age of the buyer comes into play. Only the generation of people who, "owned", "remember", always wanted" one pays top dollor for these cars because of the sentimental reasons. With time this generation goes away and the "history" of the cars goes away. It is almost up to guys my age to keep the "historical value" up. With that said, I try to learn as much as I can about the cars. Again we drive, collect, and own the cars because we love them.

Something to think about.......

1. Is a car's vaule made up of $ you have in to it?
2. Is car #1000 worth more than #1900? If it is a 2 month difference?
3. #13 worth $100k just because of the vin?

Fads come and go. Carl when a #1 Z car sells for $75k+ in five years....you let me know. I will buy you dinner!

_________________
Clive Bogle President - New York Z Car Club - NYZCC.COM
1971 240Z - LS1/T56
1974 260Z-L30
1976 Fairlady Z

This is one lively discussion! Imagine if it were being attended in a live
setting? This is one of the things that makes this Club so great: we can
have a lively, even heated, even intense, discussion without arousing
hostility or animosity.

Ya gotta love this Club! I know I do, and I feel sorry for every Z owner
who isn't a member. And also for every Z owner who is a member, but
for whatever reason, does not participate!

All Z Best,..................................Kathy & Rick

_________________
All Z Best,.......Kathy & Rick

1969 Z.CAR (#00013 10/69) 8/30/76
1969 ITSA.Z (#00171 11/69) 8/24/73
1970 OLD.Z (#06289 6/70) original owner
1971 510 2dr since 12/31/75
1969 1600 rdstr (our 160-Z)
1971 (#19851 1/71) sold
1975 75.Z (#01343 1/75)

Supply and demand gentlemen. Economics 101. It's that simple.

A #1 or #2 condition 1970 240Z worth more than a 6000 mile 1973? You bet. There just aren't many 1970s around. Knowing that my '70 is one of only 800 (estimated) or so still on the road, and that mine is in better condition than most (if I do say so myself ) DOES make me think twice before thrashing it around on the street or track. Yes, hard core CAR collectors will speculate on the appreciation of the early 240s and that will affect value. However you cannot ignore that there just aren't many series one 240Zs around anymore. Limited supply, YES. Demand has not yet truly ramped up.

We love our Zs, nuff said! One of the reasons we originally fell in love with them was VALUE. They were a heck of a bang for the buck!

Good discussion!

PS- Rick, Carl, Frank, Jimbo, Clive, I would LOVE to have that round table discussion with you all! Might I suggest at ZCCR's All Japanese Weekend?

_________________
John Taddonio
1970 240Z
1977 530Z
1984 300ZXT
zcarnut@hotmail.com
FB: Zccr zcarclubofrochester

What makes this a great convo is, I am that younger generation I speak of. No one can deny supply and demend. Supply goes down, demand goes up...price goes up. Will price go through the roof in five years? NO. Is a #1 70 car worth more than a 6000 mile 73, yes but are you telling me the 73 isn't worth anything because it isn't a series 1? If I am reading and understanding what Carl is saying.....the value should carry through the 240z model and get less expensive as you get to the 73 model. But if an ALL ORIGINAL 5600 mile 73 isn't worth $25k, why should a restored 70 be worth 3 times the cost? I understand there aren't many series 1 cars on the road anymore but really the value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I think I can agree with you guys if you can come up with a base cost. I really believe a rolling shell with least amount as rust 71-73 is worth $2500-$3000 for those of us who mod the cars. I paid $2500 for my 71 just because I wanted a clean shell to work with and the same reason goes for the 70 car. If what everyone is saying is true, I could of sold my low vin 70 car for $10,000. Some surface rust, needs minor repairs for a 40 year old car but all original 2/70 car. Would I have gotten that price....nope. Honestly I felt the car was worth $5-$6k as it sat...only because of the vin and the collectors who vaule it. I wanted it because it was a series 1...lightest car...low vin....metal emblems....vented hatch. I would have paid up to about $3500 for it at the time because I knew I was going to resto mod it.

Demand here is for those who are attached to the cars. Demand isn't like those of other cars that were owned by famous people, movies, and other big ticket names to drive demand up. Carl made two points I would like to challenge:

1. Nissan Resto Program - This effort was stopped dead in its tracks because it cost more to restore the car than they could sell them for. This is still true today and the high dollar cars that are sold, I bet have at least within 20% of money into them of the sold price.

2. Value of cars in the 80s vs now. Can you walk into a dealer today and buy a car for $5k? Nope. I would hope in time and inflation, a car that was sold used in the 80s for $5000 would sell for $15000 in todays market.

Another point I would like to make and why with time I believe values of cars go down if they are not "true collectables" as far as the sense of worth in the auto market.....why are 1930s and 1940s Ford cars and such only worth $10k-$50k? Mass produced cars with time doesn't hold value. If there were no dealer ooptions, or performance add ons or something that made my car different from yours when I bought it...I don't see besides a vin what makes one car worth so much more than another. 69 Z cars and early 70 cars have unique parts on them yes but don't substite bad engineering that was corrected with time as "vaule".

I hope for those of you who love the cars and want to see them reach the $100k mark get what you want but like John said...these cars were made and sold as being a BANG FOR THE BUCK kind of car. Which is still true today 40 years later. You want a nice classic car with style, performance and well known with people probably 35 and older and don't want to spend your life savings......buy a Z.

_________________
Clive Bogle President - New York Z Car Club - NYZCC.COM
1971 240Z - LS1/T56
1974 260Z-L30
1976 Fairlady Z

Maybe we had better plan a FULL DAY to debate this!!

All I can say is, Clive, you and your pals keep carving up whatever series one Zs are left, that will make mine worth even more! lol

And they are ALL only worth what someone is willing to pay.

I just think time will prove that people will be willing to pay MORE for a series one 240Z vs. later models.

_________________
John Taddonio
1970 240Z
1977 530Z
1984 300ZXT
zcarnut@hotmail.com
FB: Zccr zcarclubofrochester

One quickie about the Nissan Resto Program, if you please ~


As I understand this,

The Resto program was an attempt by Nissan to buy up older (1970s) 240Z cars and perfectly restore them to primo condition, then sell them 'as new cars'. I think they offered a flat rate of about $10,000 to any current owner who wanted to sell their old Z car back to Nissan at that time. The finished product, after total factory restoration, was supposed to sell (off the Nissan showroom floors) for something like 3 times that amount.

But Uncle Same stepped in somewhere along the line and told Nissan that if they intended to sell 'new' cars in America in the 1980s and 1990s, those cars were gonna be equipped with airbags, seatbelts, safety bumpers, etc etc. The 'new' cars had to meet the 'new car' building codes.

And of course there was no way Nissan could have made a 35 yr old car meet 1990s safety codes and remain within their profit margin. The cars would have gained weight, emissions would have robbed horsepower, and cost would have eaten their profit. So the program was scrubbed.

It WASN'T as if an old restored Z car "wasn't worth the cost" of a full restoration:
The project would have required extensive RE-ENGINEERING of the cars, and THAT wouldn't have paid Nissan back, considering the handful of cars they would have resold.

Sorry ~ just had to get that in there.

Frank that may be true. I was told by several people that Nissan was still losing money on every "resto Z sold". Maybe those who were contracted to work on those cars can comment or you guys who are in contact with them.

John you are right, the more guys like me carve up series 1 cars yours will be worth more to people who "collect" them. Mine will be worth more to people who "drive" them.

Again, I will say a 70 model is worth more than a 73 model but I do not agree it is worth 3 times the cost. For me, I rather buy a modern classic Z car than a stock car.

Value also comes down to:

show cars vs driving cars

I guess my series 1 71 car is worth $2k since I pulled all the oringal parts from it.

_________________
Clive Bogle President - New York Z Car Club - NYZCC.COM
1971 240Z - LS1/T56
1974 260Z-L30
1976 Fairlady Z

YUP, that's all it's worth! Shame on you! But because you're such a nice guy and didn't know any better, I'll give you $2,100 for it right now.

I only take cash!

_________________
Clive Bogle President - New York Z Car Club - NYZCC.COM
1971 240Z - LS1/T56
1974 260Z-L30
1976 Fairlady Z

Hi Clive:
I've had the pleasure of meeting you personally - and I understand your intent. Your experience and perspectives are appreciated and can only add to the discussion.



Only a few Collectors are usually willing and able to pay the top prices of any Classic Car. It will be no different for the 240Z. What I have seen over the past ten years is a growing number of Collectors cherry picking the best of the best at relatively bargain prices. This is also a common trend.



Yes - that is the difference between a #1 and a #3 condition car. Serious Collectors buy "perfection" and they pass on anything less. That is one reason that there is such a gap in value between the Collector quality examples and the Enthusiast quality cars. Don't confuse low mileage with condition.

The 73 that Randy bought/sold had sat for 20+ years without being started/ran. While it was in amazing condition for its age and was extremely low mileage - it was certainly not a #1 nor #2 condition car. All the original bright Cad. plating had dulled, the paint was faded on one side from sitting exposed to the sun, the undercarriage needed to be refinished etc etc. After buying it, Randy spent over $5K just getting it running and cleaned up.

That car would have to be completely and properly restored to bring it to #1 or #2 Condition. Because it was so complete and in such great shape to begin with {all things considered} - the cost of doing a complete restoration would have been about half that of the usual cost to restore a far lessor car. As I recall it did sell for over $20K...




Restoring Classic Cars for Fun and Profit - is a somewhat different discussion than Collectors and their buying patterns. Likewise Speculators trying to flip cars for a quick profit are almost always present once the public feeding frenzy starts at Classic Car Auctions. That is still a couple years away..

Serious Collectors buy the cars they are attracted to. They buy them and usually hold them for many years in their collections. They will usually be willing to pay over current market prices when they find the car they want - because they know that over the years that follow the values will increase far past the original purchase price. One reason that these Classics continue to gain in value is because almost every one that goes into a private collection is off the market for years to come. While demand is going up over the years, the supply is going down.



There is no question that "fads" come and go. I think the jury is still out on many of the Muscle Cars.

If you look at the Classic Sports/GT's of the 20's and 30's and into the 50's - I think you will find that "Classic Cars" are of timeless beauty and that is not a fad. They have already held their alluring spell over several generations of Collectors and I belive that the Datsun 240Z will be the same. It is not only of Classic Beauty but also of significant historic value. It literally changed the complexion of the automotive market place and raised the perception of quality of all Japanese cars world wide.




Believe me Clive - that is one meal I will look forward to eating. I may not last that long - could we draw it in - to say two years from now as #1 240Z's routinely push past the $50K mark?


FWIW,
Carl B.

Hi Frank:
In brief:
The 300ZX could no longer be sold in the U.S. after 1996 because it could not pass the U.S. Emissions standards without major redesign. By 1996 Nissan Motor Co. Ltd was aprox. $20 BILLION in debt and looking at bankruptcy - - alternatively they were looking for a merger with some deep pockets. GM wasn't interested.... Ford wasn't interested..

The Nissan Vintage Z Program was a small part of a $500,000,000.00 advertising and promotion program funded by Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. It was intended to tie the Nissan brand to its very successful past in the U.S. as Datsun, thus promote the value of the Brand - and thus hope to find a partner with which to merge.

That was when you saw the T.V. Ad.'s with Mr. K's Z and the dog... as well as the Super Bowl ad for the Dream Garage etc. Remember them?

The idea of repurchasing, remanufacturing and reselling their own Classic Cars - was simply a way to keep the image of the Z Car alive in the public mind - while Nissan struggled to stay afloat itself.

Originally the plan was to "remanufacture" 50 240-Z's and sell them though selected Nissan Dealers. They were actually sold as used cars - but carried a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty. They were never represented as "Restored" meaning to return to original condition. Nissan knew that certain items would be better than new - like tires, type of paint, undercarriage treatment etc.

The Program was ended before 50 cars were completed. First the realization that it was impossible to refresh 50 cars in a year or even two sat in - customers that had ordered the cars were mad because they were waiting a year or more and they started to cancel orders. Secondly Nissan realized that they did not have enough NOS parts to complete 50 cars - and in fact they only got 37 done. Third - yes the cars were costing them more than twice the expected total... The most Nissan would pay for a restorable car was $3,500.00 to start with.

Nonetheless - even though Nisssan lost money on each car - they made up for that in the value and amount of free press the Vintage Z Program generated.

All in all it was a very unique program and the limited number of cars completed makes them very desirable to serious Collectors. They sold for between #23,995.00 and $29, 995.00 at the Nissan Dealerships.

FWIW,
Carl B.

YOU GOT IT, JOHN!!!!! Count Kathy and me in, that's one I wouldn't miss
for love nor money. But not a Z Car, though!--- Uh, well, depending on
its condition.... No, seriously, I hope we can pull that one off. Get Mike
Krenzer (sp.?) in there too, I have read some of his posts..........

Boy, this is so great it is the first thread I go to lately. I've seen and even
contributed in a couple of others on various sites, but this is one of the
best, maybe the best yet, and I want to thank you guys for all of it! I'm
just so elated to be associated with people like those who are participat-
ing!-- and to have my name mentioned amidst those above was so very
flattering.

It's also invigorating that some of the younger guys like Clive, Colin,
Jimmy Jackson, Dave Cerutti, and several others have become know-
ledgeable and involved. It gives one faith that Zeedom will be around for
a long time. That's great since I plan to be around till age 114. I don't
want to go through one of those 30-year lonesome dry spells again!

All Z Best,.................................Kathy & Rick

_________________
All Z Best,.......Kathy & Rick

1969 Z.CAR (#00013 10/69) 8/30/76
1969 ITSA.Z (#00171 11/69) 8/24/73
1970 OLD.Z (#06289 6/70) original owner
1971 510 2dr since 12/31/75
1969 1600 rdstr (our 160-Z)
1971 (#19851 1/71) sold
1975 75.Z (#01343 1/75)

Dave Cerutti is gonna love you for calling him young!

And honestly Rick, I don't know how you survived 30 years with a barn full of Zs and no Z buddies. You must have been awful lonely.

Still, I guess having Zs but no friends is better than having friends but no Zs!