I think so.

With the history of that car: documented first auto show car in North America, documented as the green car dented by a model in Toronto, documented as the first Z in the hands of a race team (BSR), documented as the first car to hit the track, documented extensive championship history, documented drivers include Bob Sharp and Jim Fitzgerald, and it's SERIAL NUMBER 00006! There are none earlier!

Oh yeah, it's worth a lot, in fact I may have sold it short!

_________________
John Taddonio
1970 240Z
1977 530Z
1984 300ZXT
zcarnut@hotmail.com
FB: Zccr zcarclubofrochester

Have you looked at the list of cars that sold for $500,000 in auction? Maybe you mean after a complete rebuild and 15 years from now.

Oh, I disagree, respectfully. Car #6 has an EXTREMELY well-documented history and was quite literally the car which put the Z on the world map. It has completed more races than any other Z car and is the hands-down icon of the Z world for historic importance. There have been more important names attached to and associated with car #6 than any single other Z car.

Dr. Robbins has, I'm confident, been approached many times over the years to part with this car. It's still his.

I have to offer also the consideration of what a car is worth TO THE OWNER, as well as to potential buyers, when determining its worth. We haven't touched on that yet.

In this age when GTO Ferraris, Daytona Cobras and GT-40 Fords are fetching more than $20,000,000 at auction (and they've been banged up and repaired many times, and the engines rebuilt or replaced), the half-million dollar figure is not at all outrageous for a numbered car which was known to start an automotive revolution.

I was there in the 70s, driving one because I loved the car ~ but the rest of the world ALL wanted one because they were the "IN" car to have. It was a massive movement, spearheaded by Bob Sharp (driving Car #6) and Posey and Brock and Morton and Fitzgerald and Newman and Cruise and Hobbs and scores of lesser idols of the day. The car which started that tidal wave was car#6 and today the kids of the '70s are the bankers of the new century. They can afford what they want and these carz remind them of their youth.

I think anyone who could afford to spend half a million dollars for self-satisfaction would not hesitate to put that (and more) on 00006.

Just my opinion.
Frank


Haha! Sorry John ~ you and I were writing at the same time! I wasn't disagreeing with YOU!

Im a bit iffy about car #6.....
basically its been butchered into a race car so i dont think it stands along with original public sale cars....
#6 more fits in with the nissan rally cars category.... made for purpose..
this sets it apart but also sets the price apart... its value is more historic than originality....

The first few numbers before the public got them stand alone.. Nissan rally cars, BRE cars.. Made and built to show what the cars are capable of..

The BRE #6 is soo modified you wouldnt be able to get it back to a street car if you wanted.....

Agreed - with the Z's anything is possible. However now 40 years later the "probability" of any of them is very low.



Not really quite so sketchy. We do know - Of the first 543 Export Z's 3 were HS30's and the rest were HLS30's. As for where they all went - we have located 152 of them still in existence here in North America and none anywhere else. Subtract the first 12 that were not released, subtract the 3 HS30's and the number is 528. 152 out of 528 pretty significant statistic... It is very unlikely that first 528 went anywhere outside of North America. HS30 00003 has not been located, HS30 00004 is in Australia.

Is it "possible" that one or two went somewhere else - Yes. Even that possibility has a very low probability.




Yes - the headlight nacelle 70 though 72 were fiberglass. That was the most cost effective manor of production. They were changed to Steel in 73 because of the U.S. MVSS 2.5mph impact requirements. In every regard fiberglass was a better material for the purpose in my opinion.



We know that the first Z's were not all 432's. We have pictures of the production schedule from Shatai from 1969. We have seen the order in which the first production and manufacturing prototypes were built. From that we know that as far as Japanese Domestic Car production goes - the first regular production 432 would have been PS30 00009 built in Oct. So it was in the mix of 48 JDM cars produced in Oct. of 69. Where in the mix of 48 S30's and PS30's we don't know. Given the very limited production of that model - only some 299 during 69/70... there is a good bet that not many 432's were produced in Oct.



No problem with discussing the info you have, it keeps the discussion going.

Nissan Shatai was able to produce something over 21,000 of them during the 1970 Model Year - which is quite amazing. Keep in mind that production of the 240Z's was halted in Dec. and limited to less than 100 units. That stoppage also resulted in fewer units produced for the year than could otherwise have been possible.

Nissan's Management had expect the Z to sell at about the same level as the Roadsters.. which averaged around 4,000 per Year between 65 and 70. Indeed Nissan continued Roadster production along with the Z's for the first few months. Mr. Katayama projected sales in the US of 2,000 to 3,000 per Month!!. Mr. Matsuo tells us that he knew the new sports car had to be mass produced at a level of at least 3000 per month to keep the cost affordable. I can tell you that if Nissan had been able to ship 60,000 to the US in 1970 there would still have been people on waiting lists. Keep in mind that there were 125,000 Camero's sold in 1970 and about 190,000 Mustangs - just to realize the size of the market here. 60,000 Z's would have been a drop in the bucket - and even then it would have been a relatively rare car to see {out side California}. For that matter by 1970 we never could get enough 510's to meet the demand.

FWIW,
Carl B.

Hi Guys:
I have to at least add some qualifications to #6.

While #6 is most defiantly a very desirable competition car, on the down side it never won an SCCA National Championship. Here in the U.S. I'd have to say that BRE's #46 Car with Morton driving - put the Z Car on the US Map. Nissan's win at the 1971 East Africian Safari most likely put the Datsun 240Z on the World Map.

Mr. Sharp raced #6 in 70 and 71 both years BRE won the Championship. The #6 car then went to Fitzy and Mr. Sharp built a second car that he won the 72 SCCA Championship with, then after the 70's he kept it in his basement. Pulled it out and his son Scott won another Championship with it in the 80's. It was rumored that the person that bought the car from Mr. Sharp also bought the Trade Name "Bob Sharp Racing" in a package deal in excess of $350K. The BSR Championship Z was shown and ran at the New York ZCCA Convention along with #6.

Nonetheless #6 is a very significant 240Z and its history is well documented.
Brad Frisselle's IMSA GT-U Championship Z was offered at $275K, purchased for an undisclosed price - ran at the Montery Historics - and then offered at $345K. I would agree that #6 would be a far more desirable example to own and would command a price in that range.

FWIW,
Carl B.

Hey thats cool info about the light surounds.. i dint know they were all fibreglass... i guess Nissan would of made a killing when they went to metal ones on extra;s for all the fibre glass ones that were damaged... Fibreglass is great for only one thing. WEIGHT. besides that its a pain.....

Fiberglass doesn't rust, and compared to hammering metal out and filling it with Bondo - fiberglass is easy to repair. Anything on a Z that doesn't rust is good in my book..

You know that the steering wheels are epoxy bounded wood fiber as well. I guess you'd call that FiberWood..

FWIW,
Carl B.

FiberWood??

Have you actually been looking for any HLS30s outside north America?



Why would you imagine that it is "very unlikely" that out of 528 HLS30s all of them were even sent to north America, let alone go "anywhere outside" north America after having been sent there in the first place?



On the contrary, it's an absolute CERTAINTY that some HLS30s manufactured before the end of 1969 were sent to Export destinations apart from north America. Nissan was testing HLS30s in the French Alps and Pyrenees before the end of January 1970, and was testing production HLS30s on German autobahns and in the Benelux region in February 1970. The Swiss importers had a car soon after. All those cars would have been made before the end of 1969. Why would you think that ALL the HLS30s manufactured before the end of 1969 were sent to north America? Not all series production cars ( ie - those given a prefix and body serial number ) were destined to be sold to the general public, either.



Hold on, what does this "21,000" number actually represent? 'Model Year' is - in this context - an American sales concept, and does not mean the same thing, at the same time, in Japan. So either this figure of "21,000" includes the Japanese domestic market production, or it does not. Which is it?

If it does, then what are you including as the period for a notional Japanese 'Model Year', and if it does not, then surely the figure of "21,000" cars built during a certain period is totally meaningless in a discussion of the Nissan Shatai Hiratsuka plant's capacity / production quantity during a certain period of time?



For the record, Nissan Shatai's production of 310 and 311-series Fairladies ( 1500, 1600 + 2000cc models in their years of production ) was more than 7,000 units in 1964, more than 9,000 in 1965, more than 12,000 in 1966, more than 14,000 in 1967, more than 26,000 in 1968 and more than 17,000 in 1969. Any discussion of production capacity for the S30-series Z from 1969 onwards ( especially with the new equipment that Nissan Shatai were phasing in at Hiratsuka during 1969/70 ) needs to use these figures as reference. It is quite clear that they did not average "4,000 per year" 310/311 Fairladies during the period you quote.



Key point was the level of profit that would be built into the sales prices, and in the case of the north American market Katayama's strategy was to pile them high and sell them cheap. The prices were set artificially low in the USA, lower than anywhere else. This aspect to the quantities sold in the USA market is very rarely addressed, and the level of profit made - and the trouble caused at Nissan Shatai between workers and management in order to achieve all this - is also very rarely addressed.



Alan T.

For the benifit of the people following the thread - I will answer a couple that I feel are related to the subject of discussion and/or where I have introduced an error.

Yes - my original statement is incorrect - I should have said "Nissan's Management had expected the Z to sell at about the same level as the Roadsters which averaged around 4,000 per Year... between 1958 and 1970"

I was actually referring to Mr. Matsuo's statement about his disagreement with the decision by Nissan Management to use Nissan Shatai for production of the Z's in the first place.

Actual Production average per year - 65 though 70 - was 7096 produced and 6600 per year exported. Leaving something less than 500 per year sold in Japan.

FWIW,
Carl B.

In 1970 a Datsun 240Z had an MSRP of $3526.00. As I recall the Datsun Dealers had about 15% profit at that MSRP. Meaning that Nissan Motors USA sold them to the Dealers for about $3066.00 leaving the Dealerships a gross profit of $460.00 per unit. Mr. Sharp was a Datsun Dealer and I'm sure he can pin it down if necessary.

Nissan Motors USA is a wholey owned subsidary of Nissan Motors Ltd. They are actually one and the same. Nissan had to absorb the cost of shipping from Japan from that $3066.00 as well as many other overhead items associated with selling into a remote market. The Dealers paid the cost of shipping from the Ports to the Dealerships {then added that to the MSRP to get a total sales price to the customers}.

Although Nissan USA set the MSRP as required by our Federal Laws - the Dealers were free to sell the cars they purchased from Nissan, at any price informed Customers were willing to pay. Indeed customers informed that the MSRP was $3526.00 were still willing to pay well over $5,000.00 for them. A price equal to and in many cases far greater than the rest of the Sports Cars in the mid-price range here in America. MG-B., Fiat 128's, Triumph, Porsche/VW 914 - were all $3200.00 to $3700.00 - the Corvette was about $5200.00 in 1970. Mid-priced Yes, cheap or low priced - NO. In fact after the Z came out and was selling like hot cakes at full MSRP or more - you could get a great discount on all the others.

The Fairlady Z sold in Japan for about $3126.00 including a very heavy tax. ($2711.00 plus tax). I say "about" because exchange rates and reported prices vary depending on the time and source - but as far as I am concerned that's close enough. {exchange rate was 360 Yen to the USD as I recall}.

America had the largest open markets in the World - the reason that there were very few Datsuns of any kind sold in G.B and Europe was because they maintained the very restrictive Protective Trade Tariffs established at the end of WW-II to protect their own auto industries. Indeed many of these Protective Trade Tariffs were kept in place well into the 90's. Of course G.B. tried Socializing their Auto Industry which made the situation even worse. That is why a 240Z cost almost as much as an E-Type Jag in G.B. while it was about 55% of the price of one here. {last on I looked at was $6,800.00 plus a lot of Dealer installed profit items - $7300.00}

Only by building plants and producing cars in these countries did Nissan start to grow sales there, and even then as Carlos was taking over a bankrupt Nissan - he pointed out the fact that foreign cars sales accounted for only 8% of the domestic markets in Europe. One of his goals to save Nissan was to greatly increase European Sales now that the European Economic Community had finally started to open their markets. {circa 2000}

So quite the contrary - Z's sold for about the same price here in the US and Canada as they did in Japan as far as Nissan was concerned. That is the major reason that the Z Car was specifically designed for America. Of the Datsun 240Z's exported about 95% came to North America:

Australia- - - 2358 - - - - 1.38%
G.B. - - - - -- 1929 - - - - 1.13%
Germany - - - - 112 - - - -0.066%
Holland - - - -- -232- - - - 0.136%
France - - - - - 672 - - - - 0.395%
= = = = = = = = = = = = 3.12% (5305 units -rounded to 3%)

No question that one or two percent were possibly scattered around the world for the then struggling Datsun Dealers to display as an "Image Car" for the Datsun Brand. Also no question that the Z Car was amazingly profitable for Nissan at a time they really needed PROFITS. Which is another reason to focus sales on America where they had bullt the largest export and distribution systems to support the largest Dealer chain in the most open market.


FWIW,
Carl B.

"some" ? how many is some? Two or three?(':)')

By "absolute certainty" - are we to understand that you have the VIN's involved?




Yes Alan - you have pointed out the fact that it was possible that Nissan's Competition group did get some 69 production year HS30/HLS30's for the International Rally Program and testing. I also agreed that is one place #9 - #12 could have gone. But then I subtracted out the first 13 cars and three HS30's - However to date we have no VIN's on the cars so their production date or type aren't really known.

As I have pointed out previously - HLS30 00006 was produced in Oct. and it was shown in New York the 22nd of Oct, 69. Which I believe shows that cars could easily be produced in the month they arrived in any Country. It was quite easy for Nissan to fly one or two to almost anywhere within a couple days of production, and in fact we know that they had done just that in one case. Could have been just as easy to get cars to Germany in Jan. that were produced in Jan.

Information about the few Z Cars shipped around the world in 1970 is always interesting trivia. Perhaps a new thread devoted to them would be interesting and you could tell us how many of them have been found. Or what public reports, news stories, magazine articles etc we could get copies of.

FWIW,
Carl B.

THANK YOU, Carl.

My two cents ~ as a survivor of the 1960s and 70s, who had his ear very close to the ground (an American slang term meaning "paying attention") in matters of sports cars during those decades, I will confirm several of Carl's points.

From having been stationed in Japan and Okinawa seven times during that period, I can confirm the exchange rate is dead-accurate: 360 Yen to a US dollar for many consecutive years;

From having lusted over the XKE (E-Type for you Brits), I can confirm the price of a fixed-head coupe was $5,280 US Dollars in 1962 and only slightly more in 1969 (before they became bloated, overweight, clumsy, air-conditioned, solid-wheel V-12 barges reminiscent of Elvis in his final years);

From having read extensive missives about the 1970 240Z, I agree Datsun claims to have officially sent only TWO of them to England;

From having been very much attuned to the sports car society in the 60s and 70s, and a frequent hanger-around of racetracks during those periods, I will add that MANY MAKES of cars surreptitiously found their way out of their native countries and into others via the "back door" routes. That included a huge crowd of international racers who, following the Grand Prix, motorcycle or International Sports Car Championship circuits, brought along with them some pretty exotic personal transportation when visiting different countries. If a handful of these exotics got bought by locals it could explain how a FEW Z cars came to be found in countries where they weren't officially or heavily imported. The USA was certainly full of odd wonders from other countries in the '60s.

I can also imagine some frustrated buyers, unable to obtain a 240Z in their native country, visiting the USA for the express purpose of buying one here and shipping it home.

Furthermore, during the 1960s, '70s and '80s, the U.S. Serviceman was stationed at permanent bases in 138 of the world's countries. We could go to our Post Exchange and order any automobile we desired, and have it delivered to us there. As popular as the Z car was among Americans, I have no doubt some of them were shipped overseas to our men abroad. Some probably got left there when the Yank returned home.

AND, the "issue" about Z cars being tested in the Alps or the Gobi or the Himalayas or the Moon or anywhere else is completely understandable but equally unimportant ~ Datsun tested the very first cars in many locations, but then returned them to the factory and tore them down to study parts durability, etc. None of them was intended for SALE in those locations; they were only there for testing and were ALL returned to the factory ~ which is why you, Alan, will NEVER provide us with a confirmed VIN number for any of the cars you repeatedly insist were reported at those locations. The same cars, in fact, might have visited several countries and been tested under many conditions before being retuned to Datsun for disassembly and study. WHY ARE WE EVEN DISCUSSING THEM? THEY WERE "TEST CARS", NOT PRODUCTION SALES CARS.

A point we seem to be ignoring is the LHD/RHD issue. "HLS30" designates LEFT HAND DRIVE; HS30 is right hand drive. They were OBVIOUSLY intended to be sent to different countries, so I am baffled by the idea that we are even including one in a discussion about the other. This thread (remember this thread?) is about the lowest-VIN commercially-available "HLS30" 240Z ever sold. Period. WHY are we even talking about a tiny number of (differently-designated) Zs which were built to be sold in other countries?? They are irrelevant to this discussion. HLS30-00013 was the FIRST 240Z off the assembly line, designed for the American market ~ which was the admitted TARGET for the Z car in the first place. It heralded the beginning of an automotive revolution UNSEEN before or since. Hence, its elevated intrinsic and market values.

Pointedly DUE TO the American market, the 240Z Datsun and its offspring became the VERY FIRST Sports/GT car EVER to sell 500,000 units and 1,000,000 units, respectively, within given time frames. NO OTHER marque has ever come close: It took Jaguar, Austin Healey, MG, Rover, Mercedes, Alfa Romeo, Ferrari and others DECADES longer to reach those figures, and some of them date their beginnings back to the 1920s. Many marques are STILL striving to sell their 1,000,000th unit.

You can argue trivial "facts" about insignificant numbers of foreign Z cars all you want, Alan. The inescapable truth is that the Datsun Z was designed for the American market, focused on the American market, captured the American market by storm and single-handedly catapulted Datsun/Nissan ahead of its automotive rivals because there was more American demand for these cars than Japan could ever hope to meet.

I concur with Carl Beck's statement regarding American customers being willing to pay FAR more than the sticker price for these cars. I recall several of my friends who paid MORE than the MSRP in advance, literally BRIBING their local dealers, and went home happy to be on the 6-month WAITING LIST for NEXT YEAR's 240Z.

The car was an automotive wonder for its age. There was no other car which gave you more Bang-For-The-Buck than the Z car. Even the highly-touted Mustang couldn't equal the value of the Z. If you paid the same price for the Mustang as you paid for a Z, you got a stipped-down basic model which didn't perform. If you paid for a Mustang which would beat a Z, you paid a LOT more than the Datsun cost.

And while I still have my adrenalin flowing, I will address the implication that the Z was designed for anything BUT the American market. Mr Katayama himself changed the name of the car BECAUSE he recognized that no car called a "FAIRLADY" would ever sell well in America. He was attuned to the homophobic American market tastes and fully understood how such a name would fare in the land of John Wayne, Charlton Heston and Ronald Reagan. Had he been concerned in the LEAST with any other market in the world, he would NOT have demanded the name be changed to "Datsun". He could have left it with its original name and targeted some other market.

Frank T

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Frank Thomas
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