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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:10 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:18 am
Posts: 131
Yeah those twin chokes on the console...
In australia these we're never removed. But they seem to only be found on early models with the fuse box under the radio.. Most 240's i've seen have a single choke similar to the 260 on the side of the console.

1 is a normal choke.
1 has a cable going directly to your pedal. (cruise control).


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
Hi John:
Yes - thanks again to Kats in Japan we are sure that #4 and #5 were the two U.S. Test Cars. #1 was what we would call a Production Engineering Prototype, #2 and #3 were what we would call Manufacturing Prototypes, if things ran at Nissan somewhat the same as everywhere else in the auto industry involved in mass production.

Production Engineering Prototypes allow the Production Engineers to actually build the car, so that tolerances of parts, machine tooling, fixtures etc can all be verified to the production design and spec.'s. You might call it an "As Designed vs As Built" prototype. Next the Manufacturing people run a couple of bore cleaners - with the manufacturing and assembly processes defined, the people working in manufacturing and production have a chance hands on to learn the ropes.

I don't know about Nissan of course - but this was pretty standard process and procedure for Fisher Body in Ohio. These early prototypes can be assembled and disassembled several times during training sessions - and they are not suitable for release by the end. They might become units for destructive tests...

All this was happening from March of 69 though Sept of 69 with a number of units for the right and left hand Datsun 240Z's, Fairlady Z's and Fairlady Z 432's. From Jan though Sept. in the same plant some 366 Roadsters were built for the JDM, and 7325 Roadsters were built for Export. By the end of the year 419 Roadsters were built for the JDM and 8,428 Roadsters were built for Export. 969 JDM Z's were built and 543 Z's as export models.

Alan or Chris mentioned the fact that due to problems found and reported to the home offices during road testing in America, as production was ramping up for the Datsun 240Z's ie 52 in Oct., 388 in Nov.... it came to a halt in Dec. with only 97 240Z's produced. While the JDM models had the same problems Nissan felt that it wouldn't have the same adverse effect on the JDM cars. Keep in mind that by 1970 Japan had restored only about 5% of their National Highway system, and everyone knows that the Japanese take far better care of their cars than Americans would.

If anyone should write a book - it really should be Kats. His book could be about how he has tracked many of the men originally involved in testing and building these cars, and what all he has found out. That alone would be a very interesting read.....

9 though 12 are still a question - - I'm trying to track 9 down now. There are very strong rumors etc that 9 like 8 went to a private race team or individual competitor, said to have been operating out of Georgia. Nissan had a 240Z on "Display" at the SCCA Run-offs in Dec. of 69. It could have been one of 9 though 12, or it could have been #7... we know most of the story and time lines for 6 & 8.

Years ago - I can't remember who - but someone pointed out the fact that according to the Nissan Parts system - cars 13, 14 and 15 arrived with no rubber strips on their bumpers - and #16 was the first to get them.

Keep looking and talking to old guys - - another one of these cars might be in your neighbors garage..

FWIW,
Carl B.


Last edited by Carl Beck on Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
obsidianpete wrote:

1 is a normal choke.
1 has a cable going directly to your pedal. (cruise control).


For Sure...
In several older American cars the hand throttle was a usual feature...circa 1920's and 30's. It was a feature on tractors as well!! Great for warming up a cold engine - instead of using the choke which results in higher RPM but a very rich mixture - the hand throttle simply increased RPM without the plug fowling, oil diluting rich mixtures.

When I was a kid - my family lived across the street from an International Harvester Dealer. At night we would sneak onto their property - start the tractors {most back then didn't have ignition keys - just push button start} - and not being able to reach the accelerator pedals - we would use the hand throttles to idle the tractors around the lot ... ah the 50's...

Nonetheless - some "Safety Nuts" outlawed hand throttles on passenger cars here in the US - and required any Cruise Controls to be automatically disengaged when either the Brake of Accelerator pedal was moved. Most likely not a bad idea.....

FWIW,
Carl B.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:29 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:32 am
Posts: 42
Location: Sarasota, Florida
By all means look up Kats http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903/

I also want to plug the value of surfing the ClassicZ archive. SO MANY of the questions I'm reading have long discussions on ClassicZ. For instance the early cars. A couple of you mentioned the absence of the fuel recovery expansion tank, the 'kindey' tank. Yet the engines have the air pump. Those cars are HLS30Us. If the engine didn't have the air pump it was an HLS30UN. They went to Canada except Ontario. The California emission stuff Carl discusses would be the HLS30UV (or sometimes referred to as HLS30V) model. The build specification for the HLS30U is very similar to the Japanese market S30-S speculating that they ran concurrently on the assembly line. The S30-S was fitted with the L20A engine - 2 liter - however the body and interior finish are very similar. Things like rubber floor mats and clear hatch glass display the similarities. The upscale (read 'touring') version which we never got was the S30 or Fairlady ZL. It was fitted with headlight covers, 8-track deck and radio, rear hatch defogger, parking lights, to mention but a few luxuries.

The assembly line in 1969 was a series of serpetine conveyor systems that snaked back and forth through the plant. At various points, a pinwheel type of assembly system fed into a conveyor system. At other points, conveyor systems merged. At this time Nissan was moving in the direction of unibody frame design which is a subject on to itself. However our Zs were mass produced. Here are some pictures of all this.


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Her Majesty the 26th HLS30U-00026
Princess Ziesta HLS30U-00027
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12436
Location: CT
Wow ~ I've never seen those pictures before.

This was what? 1972? 73? The "B" pillar vent hole and lack of the ventilator grille holes on the hatch preclude it from being 69/70/early 71, and I undrstd that was the time period Carl was describing.

The cars themselves "evolved" quite a bit during that period, so I suspect the manufacturing process would have, too. The Japanese were always trying to figure out a better way to do things; Just because it wasn't broken didn't mean they wouldn't fix it! :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:33 am 
zcar70 wrote:
So it is fair to assume that 00006 is the "oldest 240Z in existence" and 00013 is the "oldest production car in existence".


HLS30-00006 would only have a legitimate claim to be "the oldest 240Z in existence" if it still retained its original bodyshell. If not, you are into the can-o-worms that is 'continuous history'......

As for HLS30-00013 being "the oldest production car in existence" - that's easy. The answer is certainly no. With both PS30-00009 and PS30-00013 in private hands in Japan ( both very likely built before even HLS30-00006 too ) no such claim is possible.

S30-00002 - an 'Ichi-ji Seishi' / factory 'Production Trial' car - is also held in private hands in Japan. This was the fifth of the '270' project cars to be given a body serial number. I don't know of any S30-series Z with an identity that could claim to be older than that.



Alan T.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:13 am 
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Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:24 am
Posts: 1216
Location: Webster, NY
HS30-H wrote:
zcar70 wrote:
So it is fair to assume that 00006 is the "oldest 240Z in existence" and 00013 is the "oldest production car in existence".


HLS30-00006 would only have a legitimate claim to be "the oldest 240Z in existence" if it still retained its original bodyshell. If not, you are into the can-o-worms that is 'continuous history'......

Alan T.


You know the story: HLS30-0006 was in fact the Green car that Nissan sent to the US east coast for the Fall 1969 car shows. (It is the green car in the early 240Z sales brochure). It made its debut at the NYC auto show and then was sent on to the Toronto auto show. There, a model sat on the roof and dented it. Bob Sharp had been campaigning to Nissan for a 240Z to race and when 0006 was damaged, Bob was able to get it very early. The car was converted to the #33 Cranberry Red race car for BSR. It soon after went to Jim Fitzgerald who continued to race it into the mid-70s.

Allan Robbins acquired the car about 20 years ago and restored it to the traditional BSR red/white/blue colors and continued to run it in vintage races. The car is intact, the body shell completely original with the correct VIN number on the firewall and even the ORIGINAL GREEN PAINT visible in the driver door jamb!

I've had the fortunate opportunity to see the car in person several times and it is awesome.

SO, the "oldest" Z in existence, HLS30 version anyway, is THIS car.

I'll get some pictures posted later....

(To quote one of my favorite Z guys):

FWIW

_________________
John Taddonio
President, Z Car Club of Rochester NY
1970 Datsun 240Z - 70 ZCAR
1984 Datsun 300ZXT - ZCARNUT
1978 Datsun 280Z 2+2 - KIMZ Z
1972 Datsun 240Z - ORANGE PEEL
zcarnut@hotmail.com
FB: Zccr zcarclubofrochester


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:16 am 
Carl Beck wrote:
Alan or Chris mentioned the fact that due to problems found and reported to the home offices during road testing in America, as production was ramping up for the Datsun 240Z's ie 52 in Oct., 388 in Nov.... it came to a halt in Dec. with only 97 240Z's produced. While the JDM models had the same problems Nissan felt that it wouldn't have the same adverse effect on the JDM cars. Keep in mind that by 1970 Japan had restored only about 5% of their National Highway system, and everyone knows that the Japanese take far better care of their cars than Americans would.


Carl, can I ask where that quote of "5%" is sourced from? It does not make logical sense to me. Does it refer to the situation immediately post-war? To "restore" something implies that it is being put back to what it was before, but no reference is given as to what and when?

By the mid 1960s, Japan had a perfectly functioning regional road network and a new network of super highways was under construction. The first Expressway was opened in 1963, with many others opening up to join it soon after. By 1969 there were 17 million privately owned vehicles in Japan. Painting late sixties Japan as some kind of dirt road bombsite is fairly misleading....

About those "problems" found during the 'Kaku U' north American test project: It should be borne in mind that similar testing was underway in Japan ( unless of course anyone thinks they couldn't find any roads to drive on..... ) and that cars of several different specifications were being tested there. The north American test cars were being tested in the territories in which such models would be sold ( one of the two cars of course was equipped with an automatic transmission ) and had different gearing, different damping, springing & anti-roll bars, different control layouts and different dynamics in comparison with the Japanese domestic models. I don't think its a case of Nissan ignoring any 'issues' with the domestic models and selling them anyway whilst they halted production for 'Export' models. The dynamics for the 'Export' cars were different, and two of the biggest 'issues' for the Export cars were with drivetrain harmonics and crankshaft vibrations that were not so apparent on the domestic models. Those export model drivetrain and crank problems, as we know, were still present on the earliest exported cars.......

Carl Beck wrote:
9 though 12 are still a question - - I'm trying to track 9 down now. There are very strong rumors etc that 9 like 8 went to a private race team or individual competitor, said to have been operating out of Georgia. Nissan had a 240Z on "Display" at the SCCA Run-offs in Dec. of 69. It could have been one of 9 though 12, or it could have been #7... we know most of the story and time lines for 6 & 8.


It would be a mistake to think that every one of the first few hundred HLS30s built after HLS30-00006 was exported to north America. Those HLS30 prefixed cars were not exclusive to the north American market. Territories such as Guam and Okinawa are known to have had some early HLS30s, and several very early production HLS30s ( meaning in the first twenty or so ) were used by Nissan's works race and rallying department as test cars. One of these was already in the south of France by the end of January 1970, conducting tests with all sorts of electronic recording devices attached to it. The jigsaw puzzle is always going to have some missing pieces unless you look worldwide......

Alan T.


Last edited by HS30-H on Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:21 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
Thought everyone would enjoy following the discussion and seeing all the Pictures related to S30-00002
http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/show ... ight=00002

Speaking of retaining its original bodyshell - -As I recall, in the discussion of S30-00002 - about the only thing on that car that looked original was the firewall stamp.

FWIW,
Carl B.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:24 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:55 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: NEW CITY, NY
John,

Are you 100% sure of car #6 having all original sheet metal? I remember hearing from someone that the car was fixed at least twice after being wrecked. Maybe I need to clean up my mental facts. =)

_________________
Clive Bogle President - New York Z Car Club - NYZCC.COM
1971 240Z - LS1/T56
1974 260Z-L30
1976 Fairlady Z
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:36 am 
Carl Beck wrote:
Speaking of retaining its original bodyshell - -As I recall, in the discussion of S30-00002 - about the only thing on that car that looked original was the firewall stamp.


I don't think there's any suggestion that S30-00002 is not genuine. Its story is that it was a factory production prototype that was progressively altered to test new parts / processes. That alone makes it a very valuable asset for those interested in researching S30-series Z history.

Not all "low VIN" HS30s and HLS30s are on their original bodyshells, are they Carl?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:12 am 
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Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:24 am
Posts: 1216
Location: Webster, NY
Regarding the "originality" of HLS30-0006:

I spoke to Sharpsite Racing, the current owner of the car. This car has over 450 documented races under its belt! Over the past 40 years it did have its share of race mishaps including one roll-over by Jim Fitzgerald. :shock:

Today, the car still has its ORIGINAL chassis and roll cage as set up by BSR in early 1970. Some of the sheet metal has been replaced due to race damage over the years, but the "HLS30-0006" is still clearly evident on the firewall (pics to follow).

If there is a more significant Z, I'd like to see it! :)

FWIW

_________________
John Taddonio
President, Z Car Club of Rochester NY
1970 Datsun 240Z - 70 ZCAR
1984 Datsun 300ZXT - ZCARNUT
1978 Datsun 280Z 2+2 - KIMZ Z
1972 Datsun 240Z - ORANGE PEEL
zcarnut@hotmail.com
FB: Zccr zcarclubofrochester


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 12436
Location: CT
By the way, in case any of you are interested in viewing how much interest there has been in this car before it was recently found, I recommend Googling "HLS30-00013".

There are several interesting entries on other sites, dating back more than a year, at least.

The search for this car has been quite active for quite some time.

Glad we now know more about it and the news is good.

Frank T


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:17 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm
Posts: 3049
Location: rhode island
Despite the different models, meaning there are a few #1's out there, or were out there, I think being in America, all we should be considering is the HS130 models, makes things more simpler. I say leave the other models to there own countries and let them have there claim of fame. To see HS130 #6, so it had work done to it, was the most exciting Z for me to see in my life time. To touch this car sent shivering goose bumps all over me. I would love to see #13 as well as #16, #25 & #26 or any of the first 100 made would be cool. The other models would be just as cool to see as well, but might have to go around the world for that. I'd have to say there is alot to learn in this thread, been very interesting. I'd like to thank the guys that were so informative with there knowledge of Z history.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:33 pm
Posts: 415
Being somewhat new to the Z world...
I want to thank everyone for the history lesson. Im constantly drawn back to this post and the links many others have offered up.
Someone should write a Book
Dont let the history get lost or become folklore !
Thanks again


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