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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14778
Location: CT
UPDATE ON #13:

Today (Sat/22Aug) Bryan Little, Club Photographer Phil Parent and I were invited to spend a few hours on cars #13 and #171 for a photo shoot.

We each shot a bunch of photos. Mine are a bit dark, but I wanted to share them. :D


Attachments:
File comment: The first flag-waiver of many generations to come!
IMGA1211.JPG
IMGA1211.JPG [ 63.06 KiB | Viewed 25717 times ]
File comment: Radiator support brace is welded slightly different than the one on my Apr/70 240
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IMGA1206.JPG [ 60.95 KiB | Viewed 25718 times ]
File comment: Caps are original
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IMGA1205.JPG [ 57.94 KiB | Viewed 25718 times ]
File comment: The nose of #13 has pushed thru 100,000 miles.
IMGA1203.JPG
IMGA1203.JPG [ 63 KiB | Viewed 25718 times ]
File comment: Club Photographer Phil takes a seat in a VERY early 240Z; HS30-00171, built Nov/69.
IMGA1269.JPG
IMGA1269.JPG [ 61 KiB | Viewed 25745 times ]
File comment: Phil and Bryan pore over Car#00171, while Florida member Jim Frederick asks questions long-distance.
IMGA1268.JPG
IMGA1268.JPG [ 56.83 KiB | Viewed 25747 times ]


Last edited by Frank T on Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm
Posts: 3411
Location: rhode island
Now we just need a Z mechanic to look it over. :roll: ummmm I wonder who. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14778
Location: CT
More odd shots of cars #13 and #171.

We slid a large mirror under both cars to check the frame rails and floorpans ~ we found everything solid under both cars, but you'll have to trust me on that, cause my photos came out too dark to see. The other two guys had cameras which flashed, so maybe they'll post better pix.

Car #13 has a rust hole smaller than your fist thru the R/F fender just ahead of the passenger door AND, the rocker panel areas btwn the f/r wheelwells is painted with a black stripe!


Attachments:
File comment: Car #171 has the old "red dot" mirror turn handle; ribs instead of sun/stars on flat edges, red dots on sides.
IMGA1267.JPG
IMGA1267.JPG [ 62.08 KiB | Viewed 25708 times ]
File comment: Original steel 7-blade fan fluid coupling still works
IMGA1227.JPG
IMGA1227.JPG [ 64.52 KiB | Viewed 25712 times ]
File comment: Early hood release has 'flat' handle
IMGA1208.JPG
IMGA1208.JPG [ 61.47 KiB | Viewed 25713 times ]
File comment: Original jack, jackhandle, four wheel stops (match the car color), and naugahyde bag
IMGA1216.JPG
IMGA1216.JPG [ 63.93 KiB | Viewed 25713 times ]
File comment: fuel flap is still intact
IMGA1218.JPG
IMGA1218.JPG [ 59.66 KiB | Viewed 25713 times ]
File comment: The rear hatch shelf is one area of the 240Z which rust loves ~ this one is clean and solid
IMGA1212.JPG
IMGA1212.JPG [ 63.03 KiB | Viewed 25714 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Posts: 14778
Location: CT
*(I have reworded the title of this Post, since it has drawn so very much attention from outside our Club. We have nearly 2600 hits on this subject at this time, and the discovery is not even 2 full weeks old yet. I think the re-title will make it easier for new visitors to locate this news).
Frank T
MbrshpDir/CTZCC


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:27 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
26th-Z wrote:
Ahaa...Frank! Gotcha! Which button did I push; the ivy or the league!?! I'ld love to spend some time with you! Pardon my hasty acceptance! I'll bet Connecticut is beautiful right now. We're having a tropical at the moment. Are you planning to go to the convention in San Antonio? I don't think we've met but I sure HAVE heard all about you from Beck.

I do want to comment about some things you wrote concerning #16. Perhaps 22 October 1969 was the date of a pre-order? It is entirely possible as Nissan introduced the new car to the press in Ginza on October 18th.



Hi Chris:
Per our discussion this past weekend - I went back and checked my archives/notes. It was NOT the New York Auto Show - - my bad. The New York Auto Show was in April of 69.

Nissan rented the Pierre Hotel Ballroom in New York city - for the International Preview of the Datsun 240Z, 22 Oct. 1969.

The 240Z had been flown in from Japan, just ahead of the opening of the Tokyo Motor Show 24 Oct. 1969. From New York the 240Z was then sent to L.A. where it was presented to the Nissan employees at Nissan USA H.Q. then put on display for the Press and sent over to the L.A. Auto Show around the 4th of Nov.

We'll have to see if Bob Link kept any sales orders from that first day in New York ;-)


Interesting that the New York Times report from Tokyo Oct 29, 1969 noted;
Quote:
Some of the largest crowds gather around Datsun's 240Z Sport, a sports car with a 2.4 liter engine displacement distinguished by a rear mounted airfoil in the American manner. {the writer must have been thinking of the 68 Camero Z28 rear spoiler...cjb} It is produced by Nissan Motor Company.

The 240Z will be homologated - that is, registered - for racing in its class in competition sanctioned by the Sports Car Club of America. Racing is an important phase of Datsun's program, which enjoyed considerable success in the sale of the earlier Datsun 2000 sports car."


You may recall that Mr. Tohru Kanbe wrote a brief article for the Datsun Heritage Museum News Letter - and said he meet with Peter Brock Oct. 1, 1968, as Nissan's Factory Representative to help the Datsun USA racing department and BRE get the 240Z homologated as Production C-Class with SCCA. {"68" is most likely a typo, but Peter has said that he first saw the Z Car in the summer of 69}


FWIW,
Carl B.



Attachments:
68CamaroZ28Spoiler.jpg
68CamaroZ28Spoiler.jpg [ 58.82 KiB | Viewed 25572 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:09 pm 
Carl Beck wrote:
We'll have to see if Bob Link kept any sales orders from that first day in New York ;-)


Carl, wouldn't that be called 'taking a deposit' rather than a sale? Surely the car can't be considered 'sold' until it is completely paid for or financed and the customer has taken delivery.

-Mike


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:52 pm 
Carl,

I thought you might also be interested in this article introducing the 240Z in the Nov 15, 1969 issue of Autoweek. Notice the lack of emblems and no "D" on the hubcaps on the exterior shot of the car. The interior shot is from the 1969 brochure and shows a prototype interior before several changes were made.

The article is dated Oct 27, 1969 and says that the car would be "available in American Datsun showrooms Jan 1". Would that be the date that US dealers were first able to take orders and deposits on the cars?

-Mike


Attachments:
Autoweek- Nov 15, 69.jpg
Autoweek- Nov 15, 69.jpg [ 292.75 KiB | Viewed 25552 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:58 pm 
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Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
Mike B wrote:

Carl, wouldn't that be called 'taking a deposit' rather than a sale? Surely the car can't be considered 'sold' until it is completely paid for or financed and the customer has taken delivery.


Hi Mike:
I guess the answer to that has to be settled in court. ':)

I'm not a lawyer, but the usual elements of a contract involve some agreement or meeting of the minds, supported by some form of consideration by both parties. Most sales orders are in fact contracts with very specific terms spelled out. Not that many people read them... but the Dealers Lawyers usually define what is printed on them. Both the Dealer and the Customer are expected to live up to whatever terms are defined.

At least to most Salesman - you have a "sale" when you have a signed sales contract and earnest money exchanged. If either party backs out of the contract, the other party is usually entitled to recover damages.

When the car is delivered - the sales contract is completed. Except in many states were State Consumer Protection Law allows consumers to reverse the sale if done within 48 or 72 hours. So in that case - I guess one could argue that the "sale" doesn't really take place until two or three days after the car is delivered. On the other hand you can't back out of a sale - if a sale wasn't made to begin with.

It is quite possible to "sell" a car to a customer - then have the sale fall though. So the sale was made but the purchase process was not completed. I guess in that case the sales contract was broken by one party or the other?

Best evidence in Court are the words as defined in commonly used dictionaries... So maybe Webster can define when a "sale" takes place ;-)

"Deposits" are usually quite a different matter - they are fully refundable if the customer changes his mind - they are not considered sales contracts because full terms of a sale are not spelled out nor agreed to - usually a deposit is taken when all the costs etc. are not known and neither party wants to agree to a sales contract. Just a place holder until everything can be settled and agreed to.

The comment about Bob taking sales orders was more or less tongue-in-cheek. I can just see Katayam and Link working the crowd with dollar signs in their eyes - at N.Y. getting a head start on their sales goals for the year ...VBG...

FWIW,
Carl B.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
Mike B wrote:
Carl,

I thought you might also be interested in this article introducing the 240Z in the Nov 15, 1969 issue of Autoweek. Notice the lack of emblems and no "D" on the hubcaps on the exterior shot of the car. The interior shot is from the 1969 brochure and shows a prototype interior before several changes were made.


Hi Mike:
Thanks, interesting article. Wonder why Autoweek would hold it for two weeks before publishing. But then maybe the reporter had to send everything by U.S. Mail back then, and it takes some time to get everything Press Ready.

The pictures of the Z were most likely supplied by Nissan USA as part of a Press Release of some kind. The car looks like it might have been #4 or #5 taken when they were at Nissan USA HQ. Haven't we seen that picture somewhere else?

Mike B wrote:
The article is dated Oct 27, 1969 and says that the car would be "available in American Datsun showrooms Jan 1". Would that be the date that US dealers were first able to take orders and deposits on the cars?

-Mike


No - The first of Jan. would be the first date that customers could expect to see one at their local Datsun Dealer. Dealer's were free to take advance deposits, or even sign sales orders at any time they wished. The first Sales Brochures were printed in 69 so people knew they were coming well ahead of 1 Jan. and it's logical to believe that customer's wanted to the first in line, and that Dealers would be glad to have signed sales orders - that they could then use to pressure Nissan USA into sending them more Z's to fill customer orders.

FWIW,
Carl B.


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 Post subject: Same Setting???
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
Hi Mike:
This sure looks a lot like the same setting for that photo - just without the people and from a lower angle ????

Photo and caption from Project X 240Z - Digital Manga

Carl


Attachments:
69TestCrewB.jpg
69TestCrewB.jpg [ 241.02 KiB | Viewed 25541 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:11 am 
Carl,

From an accounting perspective, revenue is recognized at the date of sale, which usually means the date of delivery to the customer. Sales contracts also normally spell out the details of what the penalties will be if either party breaks the contract, so that it is clear up front and doesn't have to be determined in court later. In a situation where a deposit is required, the penalty is often the loss of the deposit if the buyer cancels the contract. Some dealers may chose to let a customer out of a contract without penalty if they know there is strong demand, but I doubt that would be the case if the demand wasn't there. If I walked into a dealership today and custom ordered a car to be built with a weird combination of options I am sure the dealer would require a deposit and I would lose it if I canceled the order later. If there is no risk to the customer of losing the deposit, why require it?

Carl Beck wrote:
Wonder why Autoweek would hold it for two weeks before publishing. But then maybe the reporter had to send everything by U.S. Mail back then, and it takes some time to get everything Press Ready.


That could be part of it, but aren't most periodicals also dated slightly ahead, so that they don't appear to be out of date by the time they are printed and distributed? I know that is the case with magazines which are dated a month or two ahead normally.


Carl Beck wrote:
The pictures of the Z were most likely supplied by Nissan USA as part of a Press Release of some kind. The car looks like it might have been #4 or #5 taken when they were at Nissan USA HQ. Haven't we seen that picture somewhere else?


Yes, you are probably right about that.

Mike B wrote:
No - The first of Jan. would be the first date that customers could expect to see one at their local Datsun Dealer.


On your Zhome.com site you indicate that the first ship with all of twenty 240Zs arrived in LA in Jan 1970, so it seems hard to believe that many people would find one at their local dealership by Jan 1. Maybe the writer of the Autoweek article was just being a bit optimistic. It seems logical that dealers would start taking orders as soon as they could in late 1969.

-Mike


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:09 am 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 8:17 pm
Posts: 2148
Location: Colchester, Ct
Carl,

In your photo of the "project members", is that Mr. K in the middle of the group standing on the passenger side of the Z?

All very interesting history!!
Phil


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:11 pm 
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Posts: 3411
Location: rhode island
Shure does looks like Mr K. Wow this thread is so great isn't it. Thanks Frank. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14778
Location: CT
You're thanking ME? Man, I learn something new every time I read this thread! We have nearly 3,000 hits on it already, and the discovery isn't even three weeks old yet :lol:

It has generated new friendships across the board (I always wanted to meet Carl Beck!) and brought out some of the most-interesting trivia about the early Z cars I could ever hope for!!!

We need to thank Phrog and his pretty girlfriend for striking up a friendly conversation with some stranger who casually claimed to own an "old Z" at a cruise-in. If Phrog hadn't taken time to share his interest in Z cars, none of this would have happened, and the #13 car could have remained hidden! :shock:


Last edited by Frank T on Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:53 pm 
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Location: rhode island
Well, a big thanks to Phrog too. :D Thank you Phrog, your a man of honor. I was brushing up on some history myself.....some of you might remember the Boycott in Tennesse in the 70's. Now, has anyone seen the movie "Gung-Ho" starring Tom Hanks? I swear this movie must be based on that whole situation, a must see. Thought I'd throw that in there, couldn't help it, it's been naggin me. :D


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