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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:55 pm
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Location: NEW CITY, NY
Maybe Carl can setup a trip to Japan so a young guy like me that got into the Z car a little later can meet Mr. K

Carl? :lol:

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Clive Bogle President - New York Z Car Club - NYZCC.COM
1971 240Z - LS1/T56
1974 260Z-L30
1976 Fairlady Z
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm
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Location: rhode island
Yea Carl that's understandable, but Clive, you took the words right out of my mouth. That's a good idea. Going to Japan has always been a dream for me, and becoming a possibility. We need to bring AJ along so we have an interpreter. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:33 pm
Posts: 97
Location: The Valley ,CT
Thanks Alan, I did wonder how they produced cars for all markets and did not know if they subcontracted out or built them all in the same plant. Jim


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:50 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
EVILZ wrote:
Maybe Carl can setup a trip to Japan so a young guy like me that got into the Z car a little later can meet Mr. K

Carl? :lol:


Hi Clive:
Mad Mike has taken a couple of groups to Japan and I don't know if he's planning another or not. Maybe if you stick your hand up - he'll let you know if he's planning another group trip.

FWIW,
Carl B.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:36 am 
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Location: NEW CITY, NY
Carl Beck wrote:
EVILZ wrote:
Maybe Carl can setup a trip to Japan so a young guy like me that got into the Z car a little later can meet Mr. K

Carl? :lol:


Hi Clive:
Mad Mike has taken a couple of groups to Japan and I don't know if he's planning another or not. Maybe if you stick your hand up - he'll let you know if he's planning another group trip.

FWIW,
Carl B.


Carl just point me in the right direction.....I also plan to come down this winter to visit you guyz in FL.

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Clive Bogle President - New York Z Car Club - NYZCC.COM
1971 240Z - LS1/T56
1974 260Z-L30
1976 Fairlady Z
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:18 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
:lol: Hahaha! Half of the FLorida guyz are coming up here to see Lucky 13! :lol:

But I hear they have one heck of a party down there each year, around Christmas time. I (for one) would LOVE to see Jimbo's Z Mecca. Florida isn't a bad place to be during the winter, either! :wink:

Maybe we could hire a transporter to bring the cars down south of the Snow Belt, pick them up in the Carolinas and drive them down to zee our Florida brothers?

We could bring them some REAL bagels and lox! 8)

Frank


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 8:17 pm
Posts: 2148
Location: Colchester, Ct
Several weeks ago I was offered the rare opportunity to take photos of the oldest US production 240Z, HLS30-00013. An offer such as this only comes once in a lifetime. Frank, Bryan Little and myself spent a very enjoyable afternoon visiting with HLS30-00013 and its owner before it makes its public debut at the CTZCC car show later this month. I've uploaded the photos of 00013 and 00171 so you too can enjoy the discovery.

http://picasaweb.google.com/phil280zxt/ ... 6478699938

Phil


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:32 am 
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Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
Frank T wrote:

Total *PRODUCTION* figures for the 1970 car were about 10,000; apparently, Datsun wasn't sure if the car was going to sell well! :lol: :lol:


Hi Frank:
Your statement above, as well as questions about how these early cars were produced - finally reminded me of something Mr. Matsuo wrote as he tells his story of the Z Car.

Mr. Matsuo felt that Nissan's next generation sports car had to be mass produced in order to be competitively priced. In the range of 2500 to 3000 per month. We also know that Mr. K's sales forcasts from America supported that level of production.

Mr. Matsuo wrote:
-Quote_ "As thoughts moved towards production, the company considered my projected figures to be far too optimistic, considering sales to mirror those of the Fairlady Roadster _ nobody could foresee a time when we would be producing almost 7,000 units a month! For this reason, the management elected to continue using Nissan Shatai. At that time, they were located in an old pre-war wooden factory, with bodies being moved around the works on dollies. The situation later proved to be wholly inadequate. " - end Quote -

FWIW,
Carl B.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:43 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Clearwater, FL
phil280zxt wrote:
Several weeks ago I was offered the rare opportunity to take photos of the oldest US production 240Z, HLS30-00013. An offer such as this only comes once in a lifetime.


Hi Phil:
Great pictures - thanks for Posting them.

There has been much discussion related to the "worth" of #13. We won't know for sure, but it is an interesting discussion.

IN MY OPINION:
Taking my time and enjoying every step of the process - I could restore #13 in about 24 months, plus you'd have to allow at least two to three months for body work and paint work.

Time is money - and getting things done in a priority manor - I'd figure I'd spend about $15K to have the car stripped, all metal work completed, exacting rust proofing on the interior of sheetmetal panels and the car painted.

Doing the grunt work myself - on top of paint/body - - - I'd expect to spend in the neighborhood of $50K for parts, restoration of existing parts, and speciality out-sourced labor {refresh engine, trans and rear-end, plus outside re-plating, beadblasting, powder-coatings, upholstery work, etc etc.

In many, many cases it costs more time and money to restore the original parts than it would cost to replace them - but in this case restoration of all original parts would be the goal.

Send the car out to a professional restoration shop and have them do all the work - at least $175K.

Fully restored to Concours #1 Standard - what's the car worth today, 5 years or 10 years from now?
Fully Restored by the end of next year - $125K to $150K
5 years from now - - $175K to $250K
10 years from now - -$275K to $425K

Classics that have real staying power - gain value over time. This is a Z Car with significant historical ties to not only Sports/GT's but both Japanese and American Automotive History. There is no question in my mind that this is the first regular production Datsun 240Z to roll off the assembly line destain to change automotive history in a number of different categories.

No - it's not nor will it ever be a Ferrari in terms of market prices, doubtful that it or any 240Z will ever sell for $6,000,000.00 or more. There is no doubt that Datsun 240Z's will be parked side by side in many of the finest automotive collections in America. There is no doubt because that is the case today.

I personally do not know many people with a personal wealth of over a hundred million dollars, but I do know a few. Their love of Classic Cars goes beyond "price". They don't love their Ferrari's, Ford 40GT's and previous Indy 500 winners because they are status symbols, nor part of their personal wealth..They love truly beautiful and really great automobiles. These guys are serious "Car Nuts", they have a collection of cars, but they really don't think of themselves as "Collectors"... Most of them will tell you that they love their 240Z's just as much as they love their 275 GT-B's. They will I believe also tell you that when it comes to regular production examples - HLS30 00013 would be the pinnacle.

The first regular production 55 Thunder Bird last changed hands at $660K this year... I had gone to California, looked at about 50 of them in the 65/66 time frame and bought a Red one with 32K miles... I paid top dollar.. $2,500.00. Today if I found my 55 again, in the same condition it would take something around $65K to $75K to buy it. So you can see the price gap between being #1 and everything else that followed. By the way - I'm certain that #1 T-Bird was owned by a member of our Classic Thunderbird Club in Columbus, Ohio circa 1965...

FWIW,
Carl B.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:26 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
Good Morning!

Well Carl, you echo the secretly expressed thoughts of another avid collector I discussed this car with, so you're thinking the same thoughts about restoration cost and time. And I agree about the intrinsic value of the car somehow outweighing the market value of it.

But as several of you have also stated, the value of such a car is whatever some buyer is willing to pay.

And in terms of this particular car's projected value? WHEW! Hard to say in this current economy, but please consider this ~ we have recently been to visit Malcom Pray's nearby World-Class collection of incredible classic cars, wherein each one was a concours example of truly rare automobiles. (Perfect Jaguar SS-100, pristine Cad/Allard, low-numbered Maserati Ghibli, an original livingroom-size 193X Delahye, Don Healey's personal 100-4, etc.) Room after room of old classics, building after building of full rooms.

Yet, NOT ONE OF HIS CARS (in this billion-dollar collection) WAS THE VERY FIRST PRODUCED OF ANY MARQUE. And FEW of his cars changed automotive history like the Z did. Most were stunning examples of flaunted wealth during the Depression (Cords, Auburns, Duesenbergs, Rolls, etc) which were low-production luxury carriages which only a select few could ever afford to enjoy while the rest of us stood back and watched wistfully.

The Z literally changed automotive history (Oh, LISTEN to me, telling Carl Beck about the Z Car! :roll:. Sorry Carl ~ please consider this an expression of my opinion, NOT a "lesson" :oops: No impertinence intended) by being the first Sports/GT car ever to reach 1/2 million production units in a shorter time than any other marque, then 1 million, etc. The Z was priced well enough to fall into the hands of millions upon millions of people around the world (each Z gets passed on to other happy drivers during its own lifetime) so it became a FAMILIAR PLEASURE to automotive enthusiasts everywhere. Everyone has a Z story, and they look at our carz today and wish they (still) had one.

I lust after several of the old classics and fantasiZe about owning/driving them before I die. But I'm not delusional ~ I could neither keep them up nor treat them correctly if I did have them, AND some of them were reportedly really difficult to drive well. I can *JUST* afford a really good level of upkeep on my 240Z and still drive it everyday (summer) and that makes it worth more to me than any other car on my fantasy list. *(DOES ANYONE HAVE A PICTURE OF THE SIGN I PUT ON MY WINDSHIELD AT CAR SHOWS?)

So, what's the value of the VERY FIRST Z Car to roll off the production line, intended for US sales??? Whatever the market will bear. Reggie Jackson or Jay Leno would certainly bicker btwn themselves for this car, simply bcse it's the FIRST of it's breed. None of Malcom Pray's wonderful classics could claim to be the FIRST PRODUCED, nor do I know if Jackson or Leno have any "firsts". NISSAN motor corp and the Datsun Heritage Museum would probably try hard to reclaim this car, too.

The car auctioned by any of the world-class auction houses, with set reserve, should make Rick a pretty wealthy man. He bought the car knowing exactly what it is, and has held it for more than 30 years because HE ENJOYS OWNING THIS CAR. While the world speculates how much it's worth, Rick silently shakes his head and whispers that he doesn't want to see it go.

It will be interesting to zee what speculation this Find stirs up among Z enthusiasts around the world. Many will look at this car as 'just another 240Z' with a special number plate. Others (me included) will view it as a once-in-a-lifetime, irreplaceable icon. Either camp will offer cash amounts according to their perspective on this car.

I agree with you Carl ~ it could take 100,000 dollars to restore. Then, it's just like new ~ but it's not original anymore. Rick says "they're only original ONCE" and his, IS. He doesn't even want to WASH it for the car show this month! You're gonna zee this car presented as an original Barn Find. ~ spiderwebs and all.

It will let your own Mind's-Eye roam and your imagination soar.

(And BTW, I think it's pretty cool that this car occupies your mind at 0500 on a weekend morning :wink:)

Z ya ~
Frank T


Last edited by Frank T on Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:18 am
Posts: 131
I think its safe to say that Frank knows what he's talking about....
Its hard to disprove the numbers on the car are genuine. and im sure Frank would know what to look for if its been bodged up..

Just because all our info says they only came out with this or that or was only available from this date doesnt mean that a couple exotics got through without our knowing...

The very first batch of Z's could of gone anywhere... we know where some went but what happened to the rest... The info is scetchy at best..

My old mans first Z was a 71 240 unmodified... when he first bent it the front light surrounds exploded because they were fibreglass... WTF?????

For all we know the first Z's could all be the 432 body with light weight panels and stregthened rails and towers....

Sorry if my info might be wrong. Just trying to say that Nissan wernt geared up to make lots of these untill they became a hit. which wasnt hard considering what a great car it is.....

They were hard pressed just to get the first ones out. so they probly had bits and peices from everywhere on 'em...

SO.... just by looking at the pics i cant see why this car is not what it says it is....

Have you tried doing a history check on the car.. u might be able to find out where it was sold and when... plus when it was first rego'd....

great find Frank... you make me proud :)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:10 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:53 pm
Posts: 14779
Location: CT
Thanks, Pete ~ YOUR Club found this car! :wink:

The present owner feels pretty confident he is the 3rd owner. The car was bought from a known individual in North Carolina (who I am trying to locate for more facts), who says he bought it from a JUNKYARD (!) in like-new condition, after it smacked a pole with the nose. Due to the low mileage and not-bad damage, the 2nd owner decided he could fix it and bought it for an unknown price. He apparently replaced or repaired the hood (the paint was just sprayed-on, without much [or any?] primer, so the underside is peeling badly now), and repaired the radiator crossmember and radiator. I suspect that would involve a front bumper, too. Also, he said the original E-31 head was replaced with an exact duplicate because it warped (overheating due to the damaged radiator?). So the car is not (not) COMPLETELY original, but has been repaired with original parts and the repair looks factory-original.

The paperwork the 2nd owner saw (and might still have?) showed the car being off-loaded from Japan in Virginia, then being sold by a known dealership. Primary documents for all this information would be necessary to firmly establish this car's pedigree, which would tend to add to it's panache and thereby increase it's value.

But the present owner simply loves the car and is NOT inclined to let it go yet, so we're all baying at the moon like lost puppies by discussing how much it's worth! :lol:

Frank


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Posts: 1373
Location: Webster, NY
I just gotta chime in here....

#00013 is incredibly significant, it is the first 240Z "sold to the public", the first to leave the factory intended for public sale. At the time, it was no more significant than #00014 or #00015 or #00020. However today, 40 years later, it is one of the first Zs still. But is it the most significant?

I would have to say that Allan Robbins' #00006 is the "Oldest 240Z". Obviously the "first 240Z" was #00001 which never saw the light of day. Therefore, #00006 has to be the oldest Z and #00013 has to be the "first sold". Which one would YOU rather have in your garage?

Regarding restoration: having completed last year the two year process on my #3833, I feel as though I can offer some opinion, although I absolutely defer to Carl! I think #00013 can be restored to a concourse level in the $50k to $100k range. Of course it depends on the shops enlisted, but parts are still available and the simplicity of the 240Z make it a relatively easy job. The "unobtanium" early 240 parts would prove to be a challenge, but not impossible.

Would that be a good investment? On #00013 absolutely. For practicality purposes, that car would be the "first" that a collector can obtain. We can not consider #00006 as it was never intended for the public, just as Corvette #1 was not. See link:

http://www.kerbeck.com/kerbeck/kerbeck. ... t_Corvette

So I would maintain that #00006 is the most valuable, it is simply the oldest surviving Z. It's history of never intended to being sold to the public and its history as a BSR race car add to the value. #00013 is simply the first "to the showroom & sold to the public". Value? Depends on the buyer. I would guess that today #00006 would have to easily be $500,000 plus and #00013 $100,000 as they stand today. #00013 restored would of course be significantly more. As 240 values increase (and they are RAPIDLY as noted in the latest "Hemmings Cars That Matter"), it would not be crazy to see those numbers skyrocket in the next few years.

Great topic! Keep up the dialogue fellas! :D

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John Taddonio
1970 240Z
1977 530Z
1984 300ZXT
zcarnut@hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:36 pm 
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John you said what I thought but said it better..... :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:27 pm
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Location: local, Ct
zcar70 wrote:
I just gotta chime in here.... I would guess that today #00006 would have to easily be $500,000 plus and #00013 $100,000 as they stand today...


That's a bit overly optimistic. Half a million? I think not.


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